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10-23-2013, 03:17 AM   #76
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You're just ignoring my points, continuing to promote an idea that will never happen
With affordable APS-C and cheaper FF models, I doubt Canon/Nikon users would demand an intermediate format. Come on, let it go...

Regarding the thread's subject, I'd say we should make this thread sticky; and then re-read it next year.

10-23-2013, 05:00 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
By coincidence I was at a meeting this evening where an experienced marketer touched on the idea of "authenticity", which roughly means interacting with customers in a manner that recognizes their individuality and draws them in by educating interactively rather than simply broadcasting homogenized drivel.
As a concept, "authenticity" has an unfortunate history:

Authenticité (Zaire) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"the authenticity campaign was the means through which the dictator intended to vindicate his own brand of leadership"
10-23-2013, 05:37 AM   #78
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Meanwhile at Nikon: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-full-frame/240448-nikon-germany-sa...focus-now.html

Well Pentax always did want to serve the niche markets. Now that APS-C itself is becomming a niche much faster then expected, they can finally have their way.
10-23-2013, 05:51 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Amazon lists are very United States-centric and tell nothing about sales in europe or japan.
The largest EU market (Germany) is well represented by the geizhals product offer click statistics. This includes Amazon sales as they are just considered one of many shops in Germany.

The current ranking is as follows (body only offers):
D600, D610, D800, 70D, A7r, 5DmkIII, 6D, D7100, K-3, A7, A99, A77, D5300, Leica M, D800E, D5200, 5DmkII, NEX7, K-3Silver, D3200

This ranking is by people clicking through to a shop offer (click costs money to the shop). Not necessarily buying. And it does not include over the counter sales from people with less precise ideas than the ones using price comparison. But it should still represent well the advanced amateur photographic market.

10-23-2013, 07:34 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The largest EU market (Germany) is well represented by the geizhals product offer click statistics. This includes Amazon sales as they are just considered one of many shops in Germany.

The current ranking is as follows (body only offers):
D600, D610, D800, 70D, A7r, 5DmkIII, 6D, D7100, K-3, A7, A99, A77, D5300, Leica M, D800E, D5200, 5DmkII, NEX7, K-3Silver, D3200


This ranking is by people clicking through to a shop offer (click costs money to the shop). Not necessarily buying. And it does not include over the counter sales from people with less precise ideas than the ones using price comparison. But it should still represent well the advanced amateur photographic market.
There are a lot off dreams in that list that have nothing to do with real sales. How many off them will actually have the oppertunity to purchase one off the maybe 150 K-3 Silver body's in Germany?



I do not beleave that the D800 outsells the D3200/D5200/D5300...........................period!!!!!!
10-23-2013, 07:39 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Custom sensor needed.
More expensive than APS-C (also due to the point above), not a "full frame". People will continue to complain.
It signals Pentax' inability to launch a "full frame".
Will still need new lenses, even if few other DAs will work reasonably well.
If Pentax APS-C and "full frame" small format cameras won't make people switch, neither will APS-H.

I can't think of any good reason why they should do it; sorry.
You are welcome to disagree, but Pentax is a small market and I think they, more than anyone, can make unique products that target niche markets. An APS-H camera can satisfy the desire for a large sensor and the desire for APS-C advantages. I think almost every DA lens would work except for the DA14, DA15 and some wide zooms. There is a test thread on here somewhere. Nikon forums are filled with people crying out for a D400, these are people who don't want a full frame or want a premium APS-C, in addition. I imagine the 7DII chatter is similar on Canon forums. I think it could work, but as I pointed out in my original post, getting a sensor might be expensive.

Supposedly the A7, cheaper model, will sync at 1/250. It's a shame, and a bit frustrating, that you need features from each camera to make something complete

Pros for A7R
1) A7R is 36 MP while the A7 has 24 MP. Also an advantage if you want to use current E-mount lenses (you get 16MP on the A7r and 10MP on the A7)
2) A7r has missing AA filter which should give you a kick more per pixel sharpness
3) A7R’s sensor has off set micro-lenses designed to better capture light hitting edges/corners (might work better with Leica M lenses) — A7 sensor does not.
4) On A7R micro-lenses have gapless design. A7′s sensor doesn’t
5) Front panel on A7R is magnesium alloy. It’s plastic on A7.
6) Top two dials (exposure compensation and mode dial) on A7R are made from solid aluminium billets. On A7 the dials have rubberized exterior.

Pros for A7
1) Costs $600 less (and best price quality goes to the A7 with 28-70mm kit lens option)
2) A7 has AA filter which avoids major moiree issues and is also great to have if you shoot videos (it’s harder to get rid of moire on videos).
3) A7 has front curtain electronic shutter — A7R does not
4) Flash sync on A7 is 1/250. It’s 1/160 on A7R
5) A7 has on sensor PDAF. A7R doesn’t.
6) Continuous shooting: A7 — 5 fps. A7R 4 fps

Things you have to know: A7r has offest microlens design (the A7 has not). A7 has electronic front curtain shutter (A7r has not). | sonyalpharumors
10-23-2013, 08:50 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
You are welcome to disagree, but Pentax is a small market and I think they, more than anyone, can make unique products that target niche markets.
It would be a boring world, if we all agree with each others, in every matter
I'm afraid I disagree with the above statement, at least partially. Because Pentax has a small market they (mostly) cannot pursue niche markets - "small" multiplied with "niche" means very few sales. They cannot make risky moves like trying to replace both APS-C and FF with a "non-standard" APS-H.
What they have to do is to find USPs to help them promote their products, i.e. gain volume; unique selling points, not unique products that won't sell. They're trying this with the APS-C, and will try it with FF (according to Kitazawa-san ).

And I heard very, very few people asking for APS-H. Sorry, you can't convince me to count in people asking for APS-C D400 and 7DII... you just can't

Ron, IMHO it's obvious: a lot of people clicks on D800s and eventually buy some D3200 because that's what they afford... I don't trust those "statistics", they're a popularity contest at best.
But it's nice to see the K-3 is pretty popular.
10-23-2013, 09:26 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
  1. Custom sensor needed. More expensive than APS-C, not a "full frame".
  2. People will continue to complain. It signals Pentax' inability to launch a "full frame".
  3. Will still need new lenses, even if few other DAs will work reasonably well.
  4. If Pentax APS-C and "full frame" small format cameras won't make people switch, neither will APS-H.
I can't think of any good reason why they should do it; sorry.
  1. Offcourse there is a need for a custom made sensor, but that is also the strong point of it. The unique sellingpoint. And yes that will make it more expensive. The sensor module is something that contains more then just the plain sensor. So the custommade sensor will be more expensive, but the new SR-system is cheaper then on FF, as is with the shuttermechanism. It may even balance out on the end and being off the same cost as a standard ff sensor. Offering a new hi-end camera with all the knowledge that Pentax has to offer is the goal, and not putting in a camera that can be bought cheaper then all other FF offerings.
  2. Pentaxians will always complain, no matter what. It is either to expensive, or not FF, or they don't have the lensrange or Nikon has some magical button that is missing.
  3. Yes we still need new lenses. But when DA35mm, 40mm, 70mm, 560mm, DA*55mm, 200mm, 300 and DA*60-250 will perfrom better on aps-h then that is a good argument. Standardlens and wide- to normal angle zooms have to be new.
  4. Switching is always a strange thing. Some photographers do it for very weird reasons. I know one guy who will switch to this camera when Pentax also offers a DA*200mm/f4 Macro lens with it! One part of a new offering like APS-H in the market is to be a brand that can offer some unique camera that can perform up to the highest level.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You're just ignoring my points, continuing to promote an idea that will never happen
With affordable APS-C and cheaper FF models, I doubt Canon/Nikon users would demand an intermediate format. Come on, let it go...
Not before we have either a Pentax aps-h offering or a new Full Frame camera from Pentax making the aps-h really just a dream.

QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
You are welcome to disagree, but Pentax is a small market and I think they, more than anyone, can make unique products that target niche markets. An APS-H camera can satisfy the desire for a large sensor and the desire for APS-C advantages. I think almost every DA lens would work except for the DA14, DA15 and some wide zooms.
With a different production system then the big boys, it is Pentax that can make a profit in making camera's in smaller batches.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It would be a boring world, if we all agree with each others, in every matter
I'm afraid I disagree with the above statement, at least partially. Because Pentax has a small market they (mostly) cannot pursue niche markets - "small" multiplied with "niche" means very few sales. They cannot make risky moves like trying to replace both APS-C and FF with a "non-standard" APS-H.
What they have to do is to find USPs to help them promote their products, i.e. gain volume; unique selling points, not unique products that won't sell. They're trying this with the APS-C, and will try it with FF (according to Kitazawa-san ).

And I heard very, very few people asking for APS-H. Sorry, you can't convince me to count in people asking for APS-C D400 and 7DII... you just can't

Ron, IMHO it's obvious: a lot of people clicks on D800s and eventually buy some D3200 because that's what they afford... I don't trust those "statistics", they're a popularity contest at best. But it's nice to see the K-3 is pretty popular.
Well marleting is something that can offer a lot to the Pentax brand. But also remember that marketing is very very expensive and has to be paid for by those who will buy into the Pentax K-mount system.

Nice to see the K-3 Silver so popular, but that was to be expected. But I don't think it reached the viral-popularity off the much praised K-01 designed by that wonderfull Aussie that wasn't a hit in the saleslist.

10-23-2013, 10:15 AM   #84
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1. Until I can see some proof that it would be selling it's not an unique selling point, it's jut an unique point.
Having to use a custom made sensor, a custom made shutter etc is a disadvantage, because of the implied higher costs. And since the entry level FF cameras are getting close in price to the high-end APS-C ones, there simply is no room for an intermediate format.
Besides, Olympus and Panasonic had troubles with their custom sized sensors being behind mainstream APS-C ones, until they got Sony to make them. Should Pentax risk the same, to have an APS-H sensor which would perform worse than the best APS-C?
2. Many Pentaxians specifically complains about the lack of a FF camera, while others (me included) are not complaining, but would buy one. How many are asking specifically an APS-H camera, besides you?
3. Those lenses won't perform any better than on a "full frame" camera (eventually after a slight cropping).
4. You're starting from the premise that it will sell. Why? Where are the people requesting for it?
There was an APS-H market, and it happily migrated to "full frame". It existed only because the "full frame" didn't had enough speed.

Pentax already is working with small volumes; a plan where they might sell very few cameras is not very useful. Again: where is the demand?

By the way, can you quote a high-ranked Pentax official saying "we are discussing development of APS-H SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."?
I'll say again: let it go.
10-23-2013, 10:28 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The largest EU market (Germany) is well represented by the geizhals product offer click statistics. This includes Amazon sales as they are just considered one of many shops in Germany.

The current ranking is as follows (body only offers):
D600, D610, D800, 70D, A7r, 5DmkIII, 6D, D7100, K-3, A7, A99, A77, D5300, Leica M, D800E, D5200, 5DmkII, NEX7, K-3Silver, D3200

This ranking is by people clicking through to a shop offer (click costs money to the shop). Not necessarily buying. And it does not include over the counter sales from people with less precise ideas than the ones using price comparison. But it should still represent well the advanced amateur photographic market.
As Ron says, I don't know what these rankings tell us about anything. We know that APS-C cameras have at least 90 percent of the market. Yet, based on these numbers, you would believe that full frame out sells APS-C 2 to 1. I think CIPA numbers are useful, while Amazon numbers are not based on anything real.
10-23-2013, 11:00 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
3. Those lenses won't perform any better than on a "full frame" camera (eventually after a slight cropping).
You could add a 1.2 crop factor for DA lenses on a full frame, but the camera will have to be larger. An APS-H sensor would keep the mirrorbox small. Personally I don't see the problem with a D600 sized camera(about the same size as a K20D), but many Pentaxians feel that it is too big. I doubt we'll ever be able to prove you wrong, so I suppose speculating is fruitless .
10-23-2013, 11:30 AM   #87
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We're talking about an insignificant difference here, less than that from an APS-C to a "full frame"; and the D600 is not the smallest "full frame" DSLR that could be made. The K-3 is smaller than the D7100, so a Pentax "full frame" could very well be smaller than the D600 yet still well specified.

I'm quite sure Pentax / Ricoh Imaging will prove me right. At least their Head of Business Development agrees with me
In any case, it's a mistake to assume "full frame" and APS-H are equally likely to be made.
10-23-2013, 11:56 AM   #88
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Personally,

I think Pentax should effectively have a full frame model that's built/deployed along with its APS-C model - but that's just my 2 cents, however, I think that Pentax would have to get back into the market of pushing full frame sized lenses. This is where the real money comes in.

Rationale: APS-C is great - don't get me wrong. Higher volume (not that there is a ton in Pentax), but good lenses are available on APS-C, and have been made for them only. Pentax has few FF lenses left, and nobody would purchase an FF w/o lenses to back them up. They could go Sigma or Samyang which still have some FF sized.

Medium Format: This is a spot where Pentax has a good presence, yet needs a refresher. Its 40MP 645D needs a boost. In that regard, if Pentax were to go the 'professional' route, making more 645 lenses that would work with FF camera body could help them IF they were to go that route.

The point I'm getting at here is - Pro vs consumer/pro-sumer. Professionals will want a company with a backing and product line - at the pro-level, its the 645D. At the Pro-Sumer level, K-3/K-5 is what they have. Its not bad, just not FF.
10-23-2013, 12:46 PM   #89
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@formercanuck -- "...making more 645 lenses that would work with FF camera body..."

Those lenses sure are out there. I have an old 645N, and bought an excellent adapter that lets me use the lenses on my K-01.

I'm no expert, but if Pentax made a FF model, there are probably plenty of existing lenses that could be tested with it and then recommended for use with it if they were sharp enough.

But, even after reading all the excellent comments in response to my original post, I still don't think there's a business case here. In fact, the real sweet spot might be in the 1" sensor area... but we'll look at that in another thread!
10-23-2013, 01:06 PM   #90
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The business case would be about having a higher end K-mount line of products to sell. The K-3, while an amazing camera, only costs $1300... Pentax shouldn't be limited to that.
You OTOH are talking about volume; that can be targeted too, with other kind of products, simultaneously.
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