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11-02-2013, 12:27 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
.APS is the new sweetspot....
Pentax makes the best APS-C cameras around. In 2012, in Japan, perhaps Pentax's strongest market, they had less than 7% of the market share.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/final-japanese-market-share-analysis-for-2012/

Why?

11-02-2013, 12:47 PM   #47
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Lack of marketing; uncertainty after Ricoh takeover; an extremely weak 2011 (with zero new DSLR products); 2012 products being Hoya leftovers.
Having worked on their issues, they're growing now.

I assume the answer you wanted is "their only problem is the lack of a FF; if they launch that everything would be solved"
11-02-2013, 01:40 PM   #48
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In fact any dedicated camera in the future will have big sensors as the rest have, strangely, been replaced by the camera telephone.

Once upon a time full frame sensors were expensive. But we all know what happens to the price of technology as it matures.

The Sony RX1 says it all really. Even a point and shoot can have a 35mm equivalent sensor.
11-02-2013, 03:39 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Lack of marketing; uncertainty after Ricoh takeover; an extremely weak 2011 (with zero new DSLR products); 2012 products being Hoya leftovers.
Having worked on their issues, they're growing now.

I assume the answer you wanted is "their only problem is the lack of a FF; if they launch that everything would be solved"
Marketing? I'd love more, but it's a internet-centric world. Why isn't dpreview, Ken Rockwell, Thom Hogan, etc., etc., etc., talking more about the Pentaxes?

Extremely weak 2011? Pentax had the best APS-C camera in the world in 2011.
2012 Products being Hoya leftovers? Pentax had the best APS-C camera in the world in 2012.

Uncertainty after Ricoh? Sure, I can see a bit of that for people on this forum, but I doubt the average consumer (the one who has never heard about Pentax) even knows they were owned by Hoya and/or owned by Ricoh now.

Pentax has had (ignoring AF), unequivocally the best APS-C camera in the world since at least October of 2010.

Every week I hear someone say that APS-C is the most important format. OK, it's the biggest volume, so it's most important, I agree. But why is Pentax, in perhaps their biggest market, less than 7% of the market share?

11-02-2013, 06:27 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
A Pentax FF camera needs to fill the gap between the K-3 and the 645D(II).
I disagree.

There are other brands as well, providing alternatives, to which Pentax must find competitive answers. AFAIC, the Nikon D600 and the Canon 6D put pressure on the Pentax FF camera infinitely more so than the 645D(II).

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Pentax had the best APS-C camera in the world in 2011.
For some customers.

There were other customers, who needed better tracking AF, two SD card slots, access to a professional support network, etc. for which other cameras were the better choice.

I agree that Pentax DSLRs are often overlooked as alternatives and often would be a better choice for some, but unequivocally stating that they are the best APC-C cameras in the world goes to far, AFAIC.
11-02-2013, 06:44 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
There were other customers, who needed better tracking AF
I mentioned that as a caveat several times, FWIW.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
two SD card slots
Absolutely true.

I've used the D7000. It's terrible. I will state unequivocally (with, again, the caveat of AF) that Pentax had the best APS-C camera from October 2010 to now, and probably at least October 2014. If you disagree with that, fine of course. But there is no way in the world, all else the same, that I would trade the dual cards for the Nikon or Canon user interface.

Does everyone hold my opinion? No.
Do most of the people on this forum agree? I think so.
Would most (50%+) of the people who purchase APS-C cameras (usually decidedly un-pro) agree, if, after trying each of the K-5, 7D, and D7000, that the K-5 was the best? Personally, I think so, particularly if it was a "blind" test.

How much better is the K-3 than the K-5? Who knows, but I bet it is *better*, and I'd already take the K-5 over any APS-C camera out there, D7100, 70D, not-yet-existent 7DII, etc.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
access to a professional support network
Wait - why doesn't Pentax have a professional support network?


Why isn't Pentax 'taking the world by storm'? It has fantastic cameras. What's Pentax's market share in the US?

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 11-02-2013 at 06:52 PM.
11-02-2013, 07:22 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I disagree.

There are other brands as well, providing alternatives, to which Pentax must find competitive answers. AFAIC, the Nikon D600 and the Canon 6D put pressure on the Pentax FF camera infinitely more so than the 645D(II). .
But these manufacturers have a line-up of FF bodies whereas Pentax realistically will only have one (initially). The D600 is an entry level body with entry level profit margins if any. Its function is to lock people intio their system and make profit from the users by lens sales and upgrading to more expensive bodies. Pentax doesn't have that option. A Pentax D600 will loose sale to the K-3.
11-02-2013, 07:25 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote

Why isn't Pentax 'taking the world by storm'? It has fantastic cameras. What's Pentax's market share in the US?
There are a varity of reason for this already pointed out by others. However, what have this to do with FF? FF isn't taking the world by storm according to the sales data. In fact you claim Pentax isn't sucessful proved by their marketshare but the fact is that FF's marketshare is no larger.

11-02-2013, 07:27 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by kricha6431 Quote
Falconeye
I hope you don't mind if I correct on your D400 observance, but you are Sir are wrong, cause I read here about a week ago that Nikon is planning on D400 release 1st part of 2014, as they stated they were waiting for Canon to make their move with the Canon 7D II!
I know, some people waiting for the D400 say so.

Just as some people waiting for the 7DmkII say Canon waits for Nikon to release the D400.

Some say Canon will now release early 2014.

Others say it may happen but if, then it will be before the winter olympics.

I'd say, D400, 7DmkII and Pentax FF are from the same endangered species -- very rarely seen and a mystical being overall
11-02-2013, 07:35 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
In fact any dedicated camera in the future will have big sensors as the rest have, strangely, been replaced by the camera telephone.

Once upon a time full frame sensors were expensive. But we all know what happens to the price of technology as it matures.

The Sony RX1 says it all really. Even a point and shoot can have a 35mm equivalent sensor.

Cell phone cameras are replacing cameras bought for causual shooting (P&S).
People who buy dedicated cameras do cause they are dedicated camera regardless of sensor size.
Cell phone usage recruit people into the hobby. These people are even more concerned about bloated sizes as they are used to unobtrusive portable devices.
The trend for formats for serious usage has been constantly towards smaller since the day photography was invented.
The same trend is true for all portable devices.
Theres no general lust for bigger and heavier equipment.
Sensor cost is related to sensor size and sensor size is constant for a format. Moores law doesn't apply.
11-02-2013, 07:36 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I will state unequivocally (with, again, the caveat of AF) that Pentax had the best APS-C camera from October 2010 to now, and probably at least October 2014. If you disagree with that, fine of course.
I'm not disagreeing that for some people Pentax cameras are the best choice.

But to extrapolate that to "the best APS-C" camera is not appropriate. Cameras are different. People are different. Horses for courses. The notion of a single "best" camera independently of the particular needs of a particular person is ill-formed.

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Would most (50%+) of the people who purchase APS-C cameras (usually decidedly un-pro) agree, if, after trying each of the K-5, 7D, and D7000, that the K-5 was the best? Personally, I think so, particularly if it was a "blind" test.
Maybe, but perhaps people have other criteria as well, such as being able to swap lenses with their camera club buddies, the security of a big brand (as opposed to a niche player), an upgrade path to FF, access to a 5:1 macro lens, access to a 135/2.8 STF lens, etc, etc.

For sure, many buying decisions are not very informed and I suspect that dealers often push certain brands (e.g., because they yield better dealer margins) so a high number of sales should have ideally been Pentax sales. However, that still does not imply that a Pentax APS-C camera is the "best" choice for everyone.

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Wait - why doesn't Pentax have a professional support network?
According to forum folklore they don't. Maybe the actual truth is a different one.
If Pentax has a professional support network, they surely didn't offer it to benjikan.


QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Why isn't Pentax 'taking the world by storm'? It has fantastic cameras. What's Pentax's market share in the US?
Well, US marketing efforts have been abysmal (remember the "broom cupboard" video and JCPentax's efforts at this forum?) and there are a lot more factors (dealer relationships). It is a common phenomenon that technical superiority does not translate into a popularity advantage.
11-02-2013, 07:45 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But these manufacturers have a line-up of FF bodies whereas Pentax realistically will only have one (initially).
I don't see how that is relevant.

If I as the customer shop in a price bracket that includes the K-3 and the D600, I don't care whether there is a D800 or any other FF for that matter. The Pentax FF will have to fit into a landscape that is defined by all brands (not just the K-3 and the 645D (II)). If the future Pentax FF model is going to be considerably more expensive than the D600 then it will have to be considerably better as well.

Why would customers ignore a D600 or a D800 as alternatives when considering the future Pentax FF model?
There are of course a number of legacy customers that are already locked into the K-mount system, but I don't think you can build on these alone. AFAIC, the Pentax FF model must be competitive for first-time buyers as well.
11-02-2013, 08:08 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
customer shop in a price bracket that includes the K-3 and the D600, I don't care whether there is a D800 or any other FF for that matter
If Pentax placed their FF model between the D600 and D800 that would be a clever move. The Canon 5DMkIII fits in around that area, I see the 6D as being placed below the D600 - however in terms of IQ canon loses considerably against the Nikon offerings - and with Sony nipping at their ankles with their FF offerings, Canon will have to step up or be overtaken in that market segment. And the chances are good that when pentax comes out with their FF camera it will have that impact. With the improvements in metering, AF and processing technologies (Prime III) there is ample evidence that Pentax will release a FF model within a year.

Last edited by Digitalis; 11-02-2013 at 08:16 PM.
11-02-2013, 08:30 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
But to extrapolate that to "the best APS-C" camera is not appropriate. Cameras are different. People are different. Horses for courses. The notion of a single "best" camera independently of the particular needs of a particular person is ill-formed.
Again, in my opinion, 50%+ of the people who purchase APS-C cameras would be better served by Pentax than some other manufacturer.

They have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/10th that amount of people who actually purchase a Pentax.

So Pentax doesn't have specialty lenses. Why?
So Pentax doesn't have market penetration at clubs. Why?

After using NIkons and Canon's, Pentax is very clearly the market leader in APS-C camera usability. Pentax sensors are clearly superior to Canon. Pentax's implementation of sensors (no SLT) is clearly superior to Sony. Pentax's implementation of the same sensor is approximately tied with Nikon, but slightly better.

They have so many APS-C primes that other manufacturers don't have.

And yet even as they've had the best cameras, they have an unknown but likely less than 5% market share in the US and less than 7% in Japan, where, I've been told, they do have some marketing.

Why?

I haven't heard what I consider a convincing argument yet.
11-02-2013, 08:33 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Pentax doesn't have market penetration at clubs. Why?
Camera clubs aren't what they used to be - don't get me started on that subject...
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