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11-04-2013, 04:13 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
K-mount is a big part of Pentax's identity. And Ricoh have publicly said they are committed to it (in one of the other 9 million threads where this issue has been pored over).

Plus why isn't anyone mentioning the simple 'no-additional-space-required' solution to fitting electro-mechanical SR into a FF K-mount: they can just use digital SR
Pentax can't afford to be the only player left without a FF camera offering.
The other big players have been smart enough to not only move to FF, but also to continue to support APS-C.
Ricoh will most likely do the same.
It would be a near certain bet that Pentax engineers are working their butts off to fit a FF sensor and its supporting machinery inside the K mount.
Almost any engineering problem can be solved if you throw enough money at it. But - and here's the rub - a point is always reached where cost/benefit analysis steps in and a purely business decision has to be made about whether the solution is economically viable. What I think will happen, is that Pentax (Ricoh) will do what the others have done - offer a FF camera at the same time as APS-C - as separate lines. The FF will become their professional/advanced amateur line and the APS-C will be for enthusiasts.
Yes, there may have to be a new line of lenses, but this hasn't stopped Canon.
Pentaxians will howl, but we will get over it.
If you really want to hear howls of anguish from a customer base - listen to the Canon crowd who have been messed around for years - right back from the days of the Canon FD breech lock mount.
Of course, if a whole new line of lenses is is needed, perhaps a chance to get ahead of the crowd and offer a bigger sensor than 36X24mm but smaller than 645 will present itself.
Let's face it - the current FF thinking is based on the old 35mm concept, and nothing holds us to that except legacy lens design.
If a break from that is needed then think outside the 36X24 frame.
The old 127 film format presented a 40X30mm image and was once very popular.
Who knows..............

11-04-2013, 04:16 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oldhand Quote
Pentaxians will howl, but we will get over it.
Less of us will remain to howl, that's for sure.

Nikon's mount is tiny compared to Pentax's. Plenty of room left...
11-04-2013, 04:32 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oldhand Quote

Of course, if a whole new line of lenses is is needed, perhaps a chance to get ahead of the crowd and offer a bigger sensor than 36X24mm but smaller than 645 will present itself.
Let's face it - the current FF thinking is based on the old 35mm concept, and nothing holds us to that except legacy lens design.
If a break from that is needed then think outside the 36X24 frame.
The old 127 film format presented a 40X30mm image and was once very popular.
Who knows..............
Even without going to another mount, the image size can go to 36 x 36. Mind you, that would mean a taller shutter with further to run, which would make an increase in flash sync speed that much more difficult, and that WOULD upset a few people around here.
11-04-2013, 04:33 AM   #34
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Pentax have been knocking together FF K-mount DSLR prototypes for years. I can't understand this notion that they can't do it and will be forced to move to a new mount.

I'm pretty sure 2014 will see them shoe-horning a FF sensor into a compact K-mount body with SR without even breaking into a sweat.

11-04-2013, 05:10 AM   #35
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Must keep K-mount!

I understand this problem with SR...how about limiting SR movement enough to keep pic corners ok. This will reduce max effect of SR ofcource. SR limit could be on/off feature, if its off then better not put anything important near pic borders.

FF must be able to use croplenses in crop mode, in this case no need to limit SR.
11-04-2013, 06:35 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Hasn't this been discussed before? LOL...
Yes, and it's amazing that some people still don't get it right.
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
- having customers buying your camera and slapping on their existing film lenses, and customers buying your camera and also needing lenses to go with it.
Wrong. K-mount users going FF would also buy new lenses. Actually, K-mount users not going FF would also buy FF lenses.
The K-mount has a much better potential for FF lens sales than a start from scratch new system; because it has an user base.
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
- having your customers use old glass that weren't even designed for digital, or giving them a whole new line up specifically designed for the new system.
Wrong. A new lens line specifically designed for digital will be made for K-mount, anyway. But it's advantageous to be able to use "old" (but decent performers) lenses until new glass is ready.
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
- having all the official reviewers measurebating with a old FA 35-70 or FA 50 1.4 on that brand new Pentax digital FF, or with a completely new lens that gets the best out of that new camera.
Now, why would they do that?
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So, pretty much a no-brainer if you think from the company's point of view.

Of course existing K-mount users are going to be dissapointed they're not getting an FF DSLR that magically works perfectly with their 30+ year old glass and gives them stellar IQ. That's going to happen anyway if the FF is going to be K-mount or not.
It's indeed a no-brained, but not the way you wish. And trying to explain to us how we won't buy new lenses makes a pathetic argument.
11-04-2013, 06:42 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax already is no more, it's a product line now. Maybe a Ricoh FF camera would be and entirely new product line?



...And Q mount, and 645 mount. And if those decades old lenses are THAT important then maybe 110 lenses need to join in too.



True... So no lens sales to these people then? Maybe a kit lens, but that's it. Not really enough to make marketing an FF DSLR interesting at all.


I think the real reason most K-mount lens collectors might be upset is that the value of their legacy-lenses won't skyrocket when the FF DSLR turns out not to have K-mount. They saw it as an investment, thinking Pentax would eventually build that K-mount FF DSLR sooner or later.

Is the Q mount really competing with the likes of Olympus and Panasonic?

The 645 is a very niche market.

Yes, those decades are important. Some of the best lenses ever made are Pentax.

No, what I'm getting at is Pentax already has a market primed and waiting for FF and using a different mount will destroy that customer base. I have a fair few Pentax full frame lenses but don't care about monetary value, it's small beer really, but I would like a FF camera to use them on.

If Pentax decided to not go with the K-mount then most people who waited all this time for FF would move to the established FF manufacturers, Nikon, Canon or Sony as they'd be forced to get new lenses.

Just because people have old lenses doesn't mean they don't buy new ones. I'd look at new full frame lenses even though I have old glass.
11-07-2013, 04:46 PM   #38
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One of my friends and I were pontificating yesterday about a mirrorless 645D option. That may be a nice and industry-unique bridge from something like the K-3 to something like the 645D.

11-07-2013, 04:49 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
If Pentax decided to not go with the K-mount then most people who waited all this time for FF would move to the established FF manufacturers, Nikon, Canon or Sony as they'd be forced to get new lenses.
If Pentax switched mounts, I would not be on board for the FF option. I've specifically been buying FA Limited lenses because they would work on an APS-C and FF K-mount camera. I would be inclined at that point to go the Nikon retro route or some other similarly-priced option. I've decided to stop investing in systems I don't already have for the long-term foreseeable future. Someday I would like to get a 645D kit, but that's 10-15 years off.
11-07-2013, 05:16 PM   #40
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Changing the mount would kill the concept for me. I'm quite happy to use an APS_C camera with shake reduction for most of my work. The FF would be for landscape, and I often do landscape on a 2 sec timer with no SR already. But then, I'm unlikely to buy an FF in any case, so I guess I'mm the wrong one to talk to.
11-07-2013, 05:29 PM   #41
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The fact that the FA Limited lenses haven't been upgraded to HD offers some opportunity for supposition. Why upgrade the DA limiteds and not the FA limiteds?

Possible answers:
1: FA will be phased out
2: FA lenses are being reworked with greater image circle for SR on FF but withheld until such time as FF body is ready. They wouldn't want to give the game away would they?
3: They have too much reserve stock of FA limiteds and don't want to damage their return on the investment by releasing updated versions at this time
4. No change doesn't necessarily mean anything at all but I doubt it.
11-08-2013, 02:05 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
Abandon the K-mount and Pentax would be no more. The customer base is only K-mount users. Pentax cannot compete with Nikon and Canon professional support, hell you can hardly find any Pentax lenses or kit for sale in SE Asia even though that's where they're made! Marketing and distribution is near non-existent even though the demand for Pentax DSLR's is there.

There's 25 million Pentax K-mount lenses out there stretching back to the 1970's, which many of the owners want to mount on a full frame camera.

A full frame Pentax would sell in bucket loads if the K-mount is retained. Then sales of new full frame K-mount lenses would also increase. But without the springboard of the K-mount a FF Pentax stands no chance.
Yes. And let's remember that not all Pentax FF lenses are that old. There are 3 DA* lenses that cover a 35mm frame. (55mm, 200mm, and 300mm).

I would expect that Ricoh/Pentax will want to sell any new FF lenses to existing K-mount users.

And I will expect to be able to use my Sigma 500mm f/4.5 on such a camera. That doesn't help Ricoh/Pentax with lens sales, but it influences whether I would buy such a camera.

(I would accept a camera with a shorter registration distance if and only if it could easily be fully adapted to K-mount).
11-08-2013, 04:20 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
The whole point is for us to get a k mount ff. Pentax had better figure out how to stabilize the sensor, or just get rid of sr and make a few stabilized lenses instead. A new mount would only make sense for mirrorless as long as the lenses continue to be adaptable onto dslrs.
Agree on that, I want my K mount 35mm era lenses to fit with the FF. If they develop a very very good K to A adapter then I probably won't mind. Sony also developed stabilised lenses for A7.

However if they keep SR then it'll be great for medium-slow old lenses of f2.8 or 3.5 or long tele.
11-08-2013, 04:21 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
FA lenses are being reworked with greater image circle for SR on FF but withheld until such time as FF body is ready.
The travel of the SR mechanism in a pentax FF DSLR won't be anywhere near big enough to warrant a complete optical re-design of the FA lenses*.

*unless you are taking photos while perched on a running paint mixer - in which case the SR mechanism bottoming out is the least of your worries.
11-08-2013, 04:23 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
FA lenses are being reworked with greater image circle for SR on FF but withheld until such time as FF body is ready.
And the Nikon Df spent 4 years in development, so it is unlikely for Ricoh to get FF ready so quickly. I'd rather the FF product to be well thought than rushed.
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