FF possible

Uluru · 11-12-2013, 03:38 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mythguy9

And the Nikon Df spent 4 years in development, so it is unlikely for Ricoh to get FF ready so quickly. I'd rather the FF product to be well thought than rushed.

When they asked Mick Jagger how was it like with Rolling Stones during the last 20 years of their career, he said: "We had 5 years of hard work and 15 years of fooling around". Similarly, Nikon Df in some shape was most likely sitting on the shelf for 2 out of those 4 years, maybe even 2.5 years. Same as Q. It was an idea toyed around with, and then released because the company was forced to do something in such an area of interest.

For Nikon, they want to expand their FF offer in all directions ... which is a sentence so similar in tone to a sentence uttered by a Pentax Ricoh Imaging France representative, during the Photokina 2012. Albeit Pentax Ricoh, now Ricoh Imaging, didn't expand their DSLR range in any new direction. But they did help expand Pentax rumourmongering ecosystem to an all new level: now we have a whole new imaginary mount to fool around with.

Last edited by Uluru; 11-12-2013 at 03:55 AM.

civiletti · 11-14-2013, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Adam

The whole point is for us to get a k mount ff. Pentax had better figure out how to stabilize the sensor, or just get rid of sr and make a few stabilized lenses instead. A new mount would only make sense for mirrorless as long as the lenses continue to be adaptable onto dslrs.

I agree. I do not need sr for landscape photography. Stabilized lenses would give Pentax the opportunity to sell new lenses, while maintaining K mount would give Pentaxians reason to stay with Pentax. Problem solved.

civiletti · 11-14-2013, 10:54 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by calsan

I think they may go K mount = APS-C. New mount = FF.
This opens up more opportunities than it closes off.

Really, the only risk they run is annoying owners of FF wide angle lenses - designs which are now more than a decade old at minimum.
The opportunity to have much faster, wider and higher quality lenses should attract more new users to Pentax and possibly convert the long term K mount fan base. They won't have abandoned K mount (just made it APS-C) and they will have a new mount superior to all the other brands. Win - win!

If I cannot use my K mount lenses on a new Pentax FF, I will buy a Nikon or Sony FF.

Clavius · 11-15-2013, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by civiletti

If I cannot use my K mount lenses on a new Pentax FF, I will buy a Nikon or Sony FF.

Then go for the Sony, it has no problem with mounting Pentax FF glass.

Off course Pentax is going to use the K-mount for it's FF DSLR. Otherwise they would be the one and only brand that has different mounts between crop and FF. And it would be embarissing, because then Sony would have better backwards compatibility with old Pentax lenses then Pentax itself.

All in all, I think we should be content if a Pentax digital FF camera ever surfaces at all, in whatever form.

RonHendriks1966 · 11-15-2013, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by bossa

The fact that the FA Limited lenses haven't been upgraded to HD offers some opportunity for supposition. Why upgrade the DA limiteds and not the FA limiteds?

Possible answers:
1: FA will be phased out
2: FA lenses are being reworked with greater image circle for SR on FF but withheld until such time as FF body is ready. They wouldn't want to give the game away would they?
3: They have too much reserve stock of FA limiteds and don't want to damage their return on the investment by releasing updated versions at this time
4. No change doesn't necessarily mean anything at all but I doubt it.

Or..........

1: FA will be phased out
2: FA lenses are being reworked with HD coating and DC motor with the same glass as they have now
3: They have enough stock for the FA Limiteds to keep sales until Photo Kina in 2014.
4: No change is needed

At Photo Kina there will be the much loved Ricoh K-1 with APS-H sensor and all FA limited lenses will work fine with that camera with SR.

tim60 · 11-15-2013, 01:24 PM

If the sensor moves, it is not inhibitor of achieving FF since hte movement keeps a mapping of the same external point (subject space) to pixel on the sensor - that is how SR works. Therefore it is irrelevent what size the sensor is - APS-C or FF. A standard sensor for the format is all that is needed.

LFLee · 11-15-2013, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by interested_observer

It appears to be something of a packaging problem. Just take a look at the SR assembly that Pentax has been using in their marketing.

and then with the associated surrounding installation / support package

Then picture this slid into a K body. The sensor will be twice as large, and will need to maintain the same location with respect to the mount.

So, to me - it appears that it comes primarily down to packaging - and finding the amount of room for the assembly to need to move around within. Also, the supporting structure is going to need to be a bit larger to accommodate the larger sensor. I get the feeling that Pentax is trying to maintain a similar body size - which is making things a bit difficult to accommodate the increased sensor size along with the necessary room in which to allow it to move to support SR.

From this pic, it appear the sensor in the middle can be larger.??.:P

LFLee · 11-15-2013, 02:39 PM

Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm:
[A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-???

hm....

RonHendriks1966 · 11-15-2013, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by LFLee

Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm:
[A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-???

hm....

Well I do hope Pentax will sell some off those FA Limiteds to Sony users.

civiletti · 11-15-2013, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Clavius

All in all, I think we should be content if a Pentax digital FF camera ever surfaces at all, in whatever form.

Why? If the camera is not good for my purposes, I have no reason to be content.

**Rondec** · 11-16-2013, 04:59 AM

I don't see any way that Pentax drops the k mount for this camera. It just wouldn't make sense, unless it was mirrorless, which also isn't happening. It will be a k mount. I really, really hope that they can figure out how to do in body image stabilization with a full frame SLR. This really could be a killer feature versus Canon/Nikon and even Sony offerings. Putting SR in the lens increases lens size and price and isn't even available for smaller lenses. And just think if they could use the astral tracker on a full frame camera. They just have to have some feature to stand out to reviewers/photographers. Just releasing a camera between the D610 and the D800 for a price in between them and a little smaller body size doesn't feel like it would stand out enough in the current full frame market.

Parry · 11-16-2013, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by LFLee

Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm:
[A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-???

hm....

With folks in China wishing for a full frame Pentax and buying A7's as a substitute you know the free market is failing. I always believed where there was demand, and there is demand for a FF Pentax, there would be supply. I was wrong.

A7r is on the shopping list. Went into Big Camera in Roi-Et, Thailand today, 69,990 Baht or around £1400 for the A7r. Around 11,000 Baht for the grip. Only thing is I can't find a Novoflex PK adapter here.

DogLover · 11-16-2013, 11:04 AM

I'm just not interested in having to use an adapter. By most accounts it compromises the results that you can expect. Why get into something that has a built-in handicap?

Not sure if I've already said this in this thread, but one of the most reliable sources we have on future Pentax plans (AsahiMan on the other forum) stated pretty assuredly that we will have a FF in 2014 (mid 2014, I think) in the K-3 body. That is what I'm expecting and will welcome. Having a K-mount FF in that small and ergonomically fantastic body with SR will be a great product. I would expect it to have the 36mp sensor rather than the 24mp, too.

Parry · 11-16-2013, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by DogLover

I'm just not interested in having to use an adapter. By most accounts it compromises the results that you can expect. Why get into something that has a built-in handicap?

Not sure if I've already said this in this thread, but one of the most reliable sources we have on future Pentax plans (AsahiMan on the other forum) stated pretty assuredly that we will have a FF in 2014 (mid 2014, I think) in the K-3 body. That is what I'm expecting and will welcome. Having a K-mount FF in that small and ergonomically fantastic body with SR will be a great product. I would expect it to have the 36mp sensor rather than the 24mp, too.

Really, really do hope so. I don't actually want to use a PlayStation to take pictures. Sony cameras, however advanced, still don't appeal to me. Something clinically soulless about the things. Add to that the absence of SR or VR in body or lens is something that nags not to go this route.

I'll wait. I'm not going for a K-3. The K-5 IIs will be the last APS-C camera I'll ever have, although I must say it's very good for what it is. Always a good idea to wait until the bugs are worked out of anything newly designed and manufactured in any case.

The A7r does suggest a FF sensor may become available to Pentax fairly soon.

**RobA_Oz** · 11-16-2013, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by LFLee

Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm:
[A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-???

hm....

Those photos demonstrate that the A7 with adapter can use Pentax FA lenses, although that's hardly a surprise and the results there don't look all that impressive. In terms of operability, this combination is a little like having a digital MX, which some people will be fine with, but not most, I suspect, at least not at the asking price. I'd like to see the results with the FA31 mounted on an A7r, as that would indicate the higher-resolution sensor may be a good candidate for a future Pentax, using the best current glass available.

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11-12-2013, 03:38 AM - 1 Like	#46
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	Originally posted by mythguy9 And the Nikon Df spent 4 years in development, so it is unlikely for Ricoh to get FF ready so quickly. I'd rather the FF product to be well thought than rushed. When they asked Mick Jagger how was it like with Rolling Stones during the last 20 years of their career, he said: "We had 5 years of hard work and 15 years of fooling around". Similarly, Nikon Df in some shape was most likely sitting on the shelf for 2 out of those 4 years, maybe even 2.5 years. Same as Q. It was an idea toyed around with, and then released because the company was forced to do something in such an area of interest. For Nikon, they want to expand their FF offer in all directions ... which is a sentence so similar in tone to a sentence uttered by a Pentax Ricoh Imaging France representative, during the Photokina 2012. Albeit Pentax Ricoh, now Ricoh Imaging, didn't expand their DSLR range in any new direction. But they did help expand Pentax rumourmongering ecosystem to an all new level: now we have a whole new imaginary mount to fool around with. Last edited by Uluru; 11-12-2013 at 03:55 AM.

11-14-2013, 10:48 PM	#47
civiletti Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oregon Photos: Albums Posts: 1,435	Originally posted by Adam The whole point is for us to get a k mount ff. Pentax had better figure out how to stabilize the sensor, or just get rid of sr and make a few stabilized lenses instead. A new mount would only make sense for mirrorless as long as the lenses continue to be adaptable onto dslrs. I agree. I do not need sr for landscape photography. Stabilized lenses would give Pentax the opportunity to sell new lenses, while maintaining K mount would give Pentaxians reason to stay with Pentax. Problem solved.

11-14-2013, 10:54 PM - 1 Like	#48
civiletti Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oregon Photos: Albums Posts: 1,435	Originally posted by calsan I think they may go K mount = APS-C. New mount = FF. This opens up more opportunities than it closes off. Really, the only risk they run is annoying owners of FF wide angle lenses - designs which are now more than a decade old at minimum. The opportunity to have much faster, wider and higher quality lenses should attract more new users to Pentax and possibly convert the long term K mount fan base. They won't have abandoned K mount (just made it APS-C) and they will have a new mount superior to all the other brands. Win - win! If I cannot use my K mount lenses on a new Pentax FF, I will buy a Nikon or Sony FF.

11-15-2013, 04:02 AM	#49
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by civiletti If I cannot use my K mount lenses on a new Pentax FF, I will buy a Nikon or Sony FF. Then go for the Sony, it has no problem with mounting Pentax FF glass. Off course Pentax is going to use the K-mount for it's FF DSLR. Otherwise they would be the one and only brand that has different mounts between crop and FF. And it would be embarissing, because then Sony would have better backwards compatibility with old Pentax lenses then Pentax itself. All in all, I think we should be content if a Pentax digital FF camera ever surfaces at all, in whatever form.

11-15-2013, 04:28 AM	#50
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by bossa The fact that the FA Limited lenses haven't been upgraded to HD offers some opportunity for supposition. Why upgrade the DA limiteds and not the FA limiteds? Possible answers: 1: FA will be phased out 2: FA lenses are being reworked with greater image circle for SR on FF but withheld until such time as FF body is ready. They wouldn't want to give the game away would they? 3: They have too much reserve stock of FA limiteds and don't want to damage their return on the investment by releasing updated versions at this time 4. No change doesn't necessarily mean anything at all but I doubt it. Or.......... 1: FA will be phased out 2: FA lenses are being reworked with HD coating and DC motor with the same glass as they have now 3: They have enough stock for the FA Limiteds to keep sales until Photo Kina in 2014. 4: No change is needed At Photo Kina there will be the much loved Ricoh K-1 with APS-H sensor and all FA limited lenses will work fine with that camera with SR.

11-15-2013, 01:24 PM	#51
tim60 Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Photos: Albums Posts: 8,738	If the sensor moves, it is not inhibitor of achieving FF since hte movement keeps a mapping of the same external point (subject space) to pixel on the sensor - that is how SR works. Therefore it is irrelevent what size the sensor is - APS-C or FF. A standard sensor for the format is all that is needed.

11-15-2013, 01:27 PM	#52
LFLee Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,292	Originally posted by interested_observer It appears to be something of a packaging problem. Just take a look at the SR assembly that Pentax has been using in their marketing. and then with the associated surrounding installation / support package Then picture this slid into a K body. The sensor will be twice as large, and will need to maintain the same location with respect to the mount. So, to me - it appears that it comes primarily down to packaging - and finding the amount of room for the assembly to need to move around within. Also, the supporting structure is going to need to be a bit larger to accommodate the larger sensor. I get the feeling that Pentax is trying to maintain a similar body size - which is making things a bit difficult to accommodate the increased sensor size along with the necessary room in which to allow it to move to support SR. From this pic, it appear the sensor in the middle can be larger.??.:P

11-15-2013, 02:39 PM	#53
LFLee Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,292	Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm: [A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-??? hm....

11-15-2013, 03:05 PM	#54
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by LFLee Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm: [A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-??? hm.... Well I do hope Pentax will sell some off those FA Limiteds to Sony users.

11-15-2013, 07:08 PM	#55
civiletti Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oregon Photos: Albums Posts: 1,435	Originally posted by Clavius All in all, I think we should be content if a Pentax digital FF camera ever surfaces at all, in whatever form. Why? If the camera is not good for my purposes, I have no reason to be content.

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11-16-2013, 04:59 AM	#56
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	I don't see any way that Pentax drops the k mount for this camera. It just wouldn't make sense, unless it was mirrorless, which also isn't happening. It will be a k mount. I really, really hope that they can figure out how to do in body image stabilization with a full frame SLR. This really could be a killer feature versus Canon/Nikon and even Sony offerings. Putting SR in the lens increases lens size and price and isn't even available for smaller lenses. And just think if they could use the astral tracker on a full frame camera. They just have to have some feature to stand out to reviewers/photographers. Just releasing a camera between the D610 and the D800 for a price in between them and a little smaller body size doesn't feel like it would stand out enough in the current full frame market.

11-16-2013, 10:14 AM	#57
Parry Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 606	Originally posted by LFLee Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm: [A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-??? hm.... With folks in China wishing for a full frame Pentax and buying A7's as a substitute you know the free market is failing. I always believed where there was demand, and there is demand for a FF Pentax, there would be supply. I was wrong. A7r is on the shopping list. Went into Big Camera in Roi-Et, Thailand today, 69,990 Baht or around £1400 for the A7r. Around 11,000 Baht for the grip. Only thing is I can't find a Novoflex PK adapter here.

11-16-2013, 11:04 AM	#58
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	I'm just not interested in having to use an adapter. By most accounts it compromises the results that you can expect. Why get into something that has a built-in handicap? Not sure if I've already said this in this thread, but one of the most reliable sources we have on future Pentax plans (AsahiMan on the other forum) stated pretty assuredly that we will have a FF in 2014 (mid 2014, I think) in the K-3 body. That is what I'm expecting and will welcome. Having a K-mount FF in that small and ergonomically fantastic body with SR will be a great product. I would expect it to have the 36mp sensor rather than the 24mp, too.

11-16-2013, 12:21 PM	#59
Parry Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 606	Originally posted by DogLover I'm just not interested in having to use an adapter. By most accounts it compromises the results that you can expect. Why get into something that has a built-in handicap? Not sure if I've already said this in this thread, but one of the most reliable sources we have on future Pentax plans (AsahiMan on the other forum) stated pretty assuredly that we will have a FF in 2014 (mid 2014, I think) in the K-3 body. That is what I'm expecting and will welcome. Having a K-mount FF in that small and ergonomically fantastic body with SR will be a great product. I would expect it to have the 36mp sensor rather than the 24mp, too. Really, really do hope so. I don't actually want to use a PlayStation to take pictures. Sony cameras, however advanced, still don't appeal to me. Something clinically soulless about the things. Add to that the absence of SR or VR in body or lens is something that nags not to go this route. I'll wait. I'm not going for a K-3. The K-5 IIs will be the last APS-C camera I'll ever have, although I must say it's very good for what it is. Always a good idea to wait until the bugs are worked out of anything newly designed and manufactured in any case. The A7r does suggest a FF sensor may become available to Pentax fairly soon.

11-16-2013, 12:46 PM	#60
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,195	Originally posted by LFLee Also, example of Sony A7 + PENTAX FA 31mm: [A7 ??] ?Pentax?????????-??? hm.... Those photos demonstrate that the A7 with adapter can use Pentax FA lenses, although that's hardly a surprise and the results there don't look all that impressive. In terms of operability, this combination is a little like having a digital MX, which some people will be fine with, but not most, I suspect, at least not at the asking price. I'd like to see the results with the FA31 mounted on an A7r, as that would indicate the higher-resolution sensor may be a good candidate for a future Pentax, using the best current glass available.