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11-13-2013, 09:29 PM - 2 Likes   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
Ok maybe dumb question here but...
doing alot of wildlife/nature stuff these days I really like the K5II for the crop factor,but I miss detail in landscape shots..grass,foilage etc.. will FF & a good WA lens give me so much more detail??and would I need 36MP to do it
have thought about the Sony A7r & WA Lens just for landscape,as small size to carry with the K5II.
or is the only way to get a Phase one or MF if I want that kind of detail? & a better job
Cheers S
I print and sell landscapes up to 30" (75 cm) using a K-5 and K-5II (not even a IIs), a DA* 60-250, Tamron 28-75 and Lightroom 3.6 and I get superb detail in my prints. Please don't believe that you have to spend thousands on full frame and more mega pixels. Detail today depends on good lighting, low ISO, focus accuracy, the lens and aperture you use, and camera stability (using a tripod or monopod), which are far more important than full frame IMO. Today's Pentax APS-C cameras really are world class and totally up to the job of producing professional images with plenty of detail.


Last edited by Gray; 11-13-2013 at 11:32 PM.
11-14-2013, 04:18 AM   #77
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By the way, being diffraction limited actually says good things about the lens -- see this luminous landscape illustration
Understanding Lens Diffraction
11-14-2013, 06:24 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
Ok maybe dumb question here but...
doing alot of wildlife/nature stuff these days I really like the K5II for the crop factor,but I miss detail in landscape shots..grass,foilage etc.. will FF & a good WA lens give me so much more detail??and would I need 36MP to do it
have thought about the Sony A7r & WA Lens just for landscape,as small size to carry with the K5II.
or is the only way to get a Phase one or MF if I want that kind of detail? & a better job
Cheers S
I think that things would leave you no choice but to have FF later. Point-and-Shoot is declining so fast that every camera maker is now in a position to cut their forecast in overall camera sales. They're going to spend more on big sensor camera for profits, instead of low-margin Point-and-Shoot. Canon/Nikon/Sony are rushing into FF bandwagon to float above the water. Nobody is certain enough to assert that Pentax will not join the team.

In the meantime, the K-3 is wonderful to have.

Getting a good-paid job would lure you into the 645D, though. That's also fine.
11-14-2013, 08:37 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote
If you want detail, shoot on a tripod, use self-timer, a hood, and shoot at lowest iso. In post production, increase microcontrast and sharpening, but not enough to introduce artifacts. If you do not, you will not get max detail. Do all that before buying a new lens or camera.
by micro contrast do you mean unsharp mask settings in PS? are there any 'optimal' routines for getting the best from the K5II?
problem is I need a AWA lens so thus the dilemma..to get a 12-24 or 10-20 or go FF & get a AWA...the kit lens at 28 is not so great(but not bad for what it is..)

11-14-2013, 08:50 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
There are lots of factors if you are looking for that.

But honestly, what point are you trying to reach?
I mean, so many factors can work against getting sharp leaves in the distance (eg. atmosphere; lighting; wind).
And how much does distant sharp leaves contribute to a good image?

I'd suggest you also look at the Foveon cameras using the latest X3 sensor.
For me, it messes with my thinking over my own "need FF/645D for IQ" decision, especially considering the size, weight and cost.
There are other factors for all other formats of course.
However, its a quirky camera....


Full sized sample here:
All sizes | DP1M0038 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

so the SD1merrill with a Sigma 10-20 3.5 might be a good solution then,if the price drops....
as for the sharp leaves etc.. I would like the possibility to have it if desired, for 30 yrs I did B&W Abstract Fine Art work/shows etc... and did not care about such things then, but now going in a new direction,and wan the 'punch' that one can get from alot of details..after seeing work done with a Phase 1 system I got maybe 'addicted' to the detail levels there and inspiration for some new ideas...
11-14-2013, 09:49 PM   #81
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I've been following this thread from the outset. Given the general nature of the OP's questions, I agree with others that at this point he or she would benefit more from improving skills and knowledge than from buying very expensive new equipment. Without adequate understanding, FF gear is likely to prove very disappointing.

Also, as others have said, maximizing sharpness is a complex process involving sensor resolution, lens sharpness, depth of field, camera stability, and post processing. Skilful post processing can be very important.

While unsharp masking is one example of microcontrast adjustment, it is very crude compared to the sharpening capabilities of ACR and Lightroom. As well, there are other ways of adjusting contrast that are not actually sharpening, but are related to microcontrast. The clarity slider in ACR is one example. Properly applied it can be quite useful in increasing the apparent sharpness of an image. There are also ways of adjusting local microcontrast via selective dodging and/or burning of shadows and highlights.

Personally, I find books far more useful than the Web for learning purposes.

I suggest that the OP should first work at optimizing both post processing procedures and the performance of his/her present equipment. Lessons learned from that process will lead to a wiser choice of new gear, and to actually getting some value from that equipment.
11-14-2013, 11:21 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mr Bassie Quote
Foveon FTW. I highly recommend them to anyone who wants the max quality at the cost of a camera that is a real pain to use.
Why not use Nikon instead?
11-15-2013, 01:16 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
so the SD1merrill with a Sigma 10-20 3.5 might be a good solution then,if the price drops....
as for the sharp leaves etc.. I would like the possibility to have it if desired, for 30 yrs I did B&W Abstract Fine Art work/shows etc... and did not care about such things then, but now going in a new direction,and wan the 'punch' that one can get from alot of details..after seeing work done with a Phase 1 system I got maybe 'addicted' to the detail levels there and inspiration for some new ideas...

This is just my own opinion on the SD1.
I did not see samples that were as convincing as the DPxm series on the SD1.
Maybe its the matching of the lenses to the camera.
BTW, the 10-20/3.5 isn't considered any better than the variable aperture version, and the 8-16 is supposed to be the better of the two based on close friends who have used both.
You may want to check out the Foveon user group in the non-Pentax camera section for a better opinion.

The other reason I'd not suggest SD1m is that its a system camera.
In other words, you bring it and some lenses, and you most likely don't have the capacity to bring anything else.
The pitfall to that is that the SD1m will not AF fast and the foveon sensors have very bad high iso performance.
So it you are travelling and take a bit of everything (eg. people/candids/streets; night market; dim church with no tripod allowed, etc), you may run into its limitations.

Thirdly, I don't push other camera systems on PF

My few cents.


QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Why not use Nikon instead?
IMO, the DPxm series for low iso shots easily betters anything using a bayer array 24mp and lower.
So only the D800e is a match or better, but only with the best lenses. (thats like $3.5K-$4K)
So portability and price wise, the Sigma is a good consideration.
Of course this is only wrt slow high IQ, low ISO stuff.

I've used my DP1m+Q7 or DP1m+K30 with FA31,43,35.
Very versatile combo w/o weighing much and no need for lens changing.
The DP1m does the high IQ 'landscape' work.
The niffy Q7 or K30 does the other stuff (people/candids/small things, etc)

Finally, Dpxm series is not a system and does not fully replace a Pentax system (just compliments it ), since I'd rather not push any other brand on a Pentax Forum

11-15-2013, 07:11 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Why not use Nikon instead?
I have a tiny little point and shoot case I attach to the edge of my camera pack. My DP2 goes in there. Just waiting for a chance to get out. It's a fraction the size of an FF NIkon, weighs almost nothing… but takes great images.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
by micro contrast do you mean unsharp mask settings in PS? are there any 'optimal' routines for getting the best from the K5II?
problem is I need a AWA lens so thus the dilemma..to get a 12-24 or 10-20 or go FF & get a AWA...the kit lens at 28 is not so great(but not bad for what it is..)
A while ago, around my house we compared images taken with my DA* 60-250 @ 90mm and my Tamron 90, both excellent lenses. In the end, though there was virtually no difference in resolution, the Tarmon images had a teeny tiny little bit more pop, and it appeared to be through micro contrast, just a little bit more contrast within each leaf in the frame. I could be wrong, but I think it's probably due to better control of CA, fewer aberration artifacts messing up the natural colour in small details, leading to slightly sharper more distinct colour patterns and edges. Looking at the resolution they were virtually identical. But you could tell the difference. The prime was slightly better.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mr Bassie Quote
Because my DP2M is amazingly good quality pictures, especially for the price and size.

I'm sure there are better cameras if you are willing to pay several thousand dollars.

Plus I like my K-01 and K5 too much to switch to another brand.
Exactly

What you can do with a DP2 two image pano,



Pixel peeping crop… razor sharp IQ right down to the pixel level, micro-contrast right down to the pixel level.
11-15-2013, 07:53 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
What you can do with a DP2 two image pano

Blues still look weak on the Foveon sensor - Sigma has never gotten the blue response curves right, and I see they are still applying RAW sharpening to the red channel.
11-15-2013, 07:59 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Blues still look weak on the Foveon sensor - Sigma has never gotten the blue response curves right, and I see they are still applying RAW sharpening to the red channel.
Its a frustrating camera… and it doesn't work every time, but sometimes the stars align and you get a great image with it. The raw files seem to be over sharpened coming off the camera, and I often get artifacts when I reduce from the original size, all sharpening is turned off in Aperture when I pp the files, because the default level of sharpening is already more than I want, Sigma is definitely not my friend here, in the way they've implemented this.

But when you get that image that works… it's addictive.
11-15-2013, 09:02 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
This is just my own opinion on the SD1.
I did not see samples that were as convincing as the DPxm series on the SD1.
Maybe its the matching of the lenses to the camera.
BTW, the 10-20/3.5 isn't considered any better than the variable aperture version, and the 8-16 is supposed to be the better of the two based on close friends who have used both.
You may want to check out the Foveon user group in the non-Pentax camera section for a better opinion.

The other reason I'd not suggest SD1m is that its a system camera.
In other words, you bring it and some lenses, and you most likely don't have the capacity to bring anything else.
The pitfall to that is that the SD1m will not AF fast and the foveon sensors have very bad high iso performance.
So it you are travelling and take a bit of everything (eg. people/candids/streets; night market; dim church with no tripod allowed, etc), you may run into its limitations.

Thirdly, I don't push other camera systems on PF

My few cents.




IMO, the DPxm series for low iso shots easily betters anything using a bayer array 24mp and lower.
So only the D800e is a match or better, but only with the best lenses. (thats like $3.5K-$4K)
So portability and price wise, the Sigma is a good consideration.
Of course this is only wrt slow high IQ, low ISO stuff.

I've used my DP1m+Q7 or DP1m+K30 with FA31,43,35.
Very versatile combo w/o weighing much and no need for lens changing.
The DP1m does the high IQ 'landscape' work.
The niffy Q7 or K30 does the other stuff (people/candids/small things, etc)

Finally, Dpxm series is not a system and does not fully replace a Pentax system (just compliments it ), since I'd rather not push any other brand on a Pentax Forum
hmmm I know you before gas said the DPx series is very good..never have seen one except on the net,hard when no where to try one,but price is not so much now I think

funny from the reviews I thought the Sigma 10-20 3.5 was the better one??? need about 12-24 for what I want to do now--8-16 is too short

yes my idea was something to compliment the K5II..not so big if possible..not as young as I was
11-15-2013, 09:15 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
I've been following this thread from the outset. Given the general nature of the OP's questions, I agree with others that at this point he or she would benefit more from improving skills and knowledge than from buying very expensive new equipment. Without adequate understanding, FF gear is likely to prove very disappointing.

Also, as others have said, maximizing sharpness is a complex process involving sensor resolution, lens sharpness, depth of field, camera stability, and post processing. Skilful post processing can be very important.

While unsharp masking is one example of microcontrast adjustment, it is very crude compared to the sharpening capabilities of ACR and Lightroom. As well, there are other ways of adjusting contrast that are not actually sharpening, but are related to microcontrast. The clarity slider in ACR is one example. Properly applied it can be quite useful in increasing the apparent sharpness of an image. There are also ways of adjusting local microcontrast via selective dodging and/or burning of shadows and highlights.

Personally, I find books far more useful than the Web for learning purposes.

I suggest that the OP should first work at optimizing both post processing procedures and the performance of his/her present equipment. Lessons learned from that process will lead to a wiser choice of new gear, and to actually getting some value from that equipment.
Just to be on the same page.... been doing photos for 40+ yrs so I know what was/is needed,but my post processing is not the best maybe..use ACR, clarity,sharpen on it but maybe I'm missing something..not using Lightroom so much, mostly PS CS5 ..so is Lightroom better then?
this question was only about WA shots and getting max details if needed..of course tripod,remote,optimal F stops etc.. but since I don't have a good WA lens now I ask before buying one,will FF give me more,or will I loose some corner sharpness ..unless I can find a 24mmFF equiv. that is razor sharp across the frame
and if there were any PP settings to get the most out of the Pentax sensor...I try to keep low ISO 80-200,shoot raw,bracket sometimes.. and with the lenses I have now its gets close to what I want,but there is always so much more to learn....therefore this forum is so good for that
11-15-2013, 09:47 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have a tiny little point and shoot case I attach to the edge of my camera pack. My DP2 goes in there.
But is it a pain in the ass to use?
11-15-2013, 10:40 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
But is it a pain in the ass to use?
Yes and no… I'd never use it over 400 ISO, it has no shake reduction, so you need to have it on a tripod for almost every shot (but you can use a really small light weight tripod). It takes 10 seconds to process between pictures, and the battery dies after about 80 images… but apart form those things… no.

On the other hand I love the live histogram to help with exposure.

It's like shooting with a teeny tiny little MF camera.
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