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11-21-2013, 11:32 PM - 1 Like   #16
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Just a thought:

What if, instead of 135 format, Pentax devised a 645DII with a handling performance comparable to the K-3? Even if it retained the 645D's current cropped sensor size, obviously with current-generation technology, but gained a derivative of the SAFOX 11 AF system, an 8 FPS burst mode with massive buffers to match, and the like.

Basically, what I'm proposing is a 44x33mm format (or larger) camera sans the deliberate, ponderous, slow operation people associate with medium format cameras. A 645DII that makes any 135 format entrant irrelevant. The lenses already exist.

And nothing mirrorless; rather, a traditional but supreme DSLR.


Last edited by Adam G; 11-21-2013 at 11:50 PM.
11-22-2013, 03:43 AM   #17
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Whatever they do they need a FASTER FLASH Synch speed at least 1/250th ! I use my wife's Fuji Finepix S9600 for 'Work' photos sometime as my K10D synchs only up to 1/180th and with that much CHEAPER Fuji I can use 1/2000 th !!
11-22-2013, 01:24 PM   #18
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I just caught up to this article right here on PF.
Pentax Confirms Full-Frame Plans at CP+ - Pentax Rumors - PentaxForums.com
Lol at some of the comments

Anyway it sounds like 2014 will see Pentax FF enthusiasts rejoice!
Better start saving ur $$ or liquidate some of those DFA and Da lenses!
Thanks for your input guys.

Last edited by Iksobarg; 11-22-2013 at 01:34 PM.
11-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
Two words: Marc Newson.
Ouch!

11-22-2013, 03:07 PM - 2 Likes   #20
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I personally think that the 645D is the Pentax full frame camera. It is a terrific camera, more than Canon or Nikon can show. Why is it such a big deal to have a Canikon wannabe?
11-23-2013, 06:31 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
I personally think that the 645D is the Pentax full frame camera. It is a terrific camera, more than Canon or Nikon can show. Why is it such a big deal to have a Canikon wannabe?
Good for you! However, for me it is is not. For me it is about using k-mount lenses (otherwise I can also buy Canon or Nikon - different mount, different lenses), razor-thin DOF and low-light photography. And therefore I am not interested in a 645D. And I think the step between APS-C and 645D is too large. So it's not without a reason why many pros don't shoot neither with aps-c nor with digital medium format.
11-23-2013, 09:14 AM   #22
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I'd certainly purchase a 645DII if or when it was a better value to me than FF.

Right now the lenses I want for the 645D are say, total of $8k and the camera is $7k or so, so let's say $15k. I still "need" another system with a higher framerate and better high ISO for low light action, so figure another $3k or so for a total of $18k.

I can get the D600 + 14-24 f/2.8 + 24-70 f/2.8 + 70-200 f/2.8 for ~ $8k, and still have a decent framerate, and still be able to stitch larger photos. I can still get cheap but good lenses like the 50 F/1.4, etc for low light, and have great high ISO ability.

(In fact I consider the D600 'free' because I "needed" a long telephoto and I "saved" so much money by going to Nikon/Sigma rather than Pentax.)

Pentax makes a great 645D. I'm sure the 645DII will be better. If the 645DII has a 50mm sensor the value proposition will be closer; but right now, for my use case, FF was cheaper than APS-C and 645 was twice as expensive.


The best system for me at $2k is APS-C.
The best system for me at $6k is FF.
The best system for me at $18k is 645D (coupled with APS-C or FF).

Most people like the least expensive option, sure, but I think there's a lot of people who want a step up from APS-C and are still not quite willing to plunk down the cost for a 645D system.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 11-23-2013 at 05:19 PM.
11-23-2013, 01:47 PM   #23
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Oh, I would certainly buy the 645D or the DII. For me it is a terrific value proposition buy I already own the lenses.

At this point I am still happily using my 645Nii but I am reaching the point where film, as nice as it is, is becoming more difficult for me to handle. I used to send all my film for developing and digitizing but now I am retired and doing it myself. As a result the digital solution is becoming more and more interesting to me. I have arranged a rental over the Christmas Holidays and if that works out, I will be going shopping.

11-23-2013, 02:04 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
Good for you! However, for me it is is not. For me it is about using k-mount lenses (otherwise I can also buy Canon or Nikon - different mount, different lenses), razor-thin DOF and low-light photography. And therefore I am not interested in a 645D. And I think the step between APS-C and 645D is too large. So it's not without a reason why many pros don't shoot neither with aps-c nor with digital medium format.
That's fine, everyone has different needs. If Nikon or Canon work out for you than it is good. But, based on how long we waited for a digital 645, it may be a while before we get a full frame Pentax.

I love my K-Mount lenses, but I also find the 645 lenses to be some of the finest I own. Interestingly I get very thin DOF out of my 645Nii lenses, more even than I get from 35mm if I want. I can even work in very low light though it requires faster ISO numbers. But if I shoot Delta 3200 or push Portra 400, I usually have no real problems.

For most the bigger problems really revolve around size and telephoto, not so much the issues that you mentioned. But that also has its advantages. When I walk onto a field with the 645Nii, the 80-160 zoom, and a monopod, most people just assume I am a pro and belong there so I get very few questions.

Besides, once you have looked at a 645 slide on a light box everything smaller looks second best.
12-18-2013, 09:37 AM   #25
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Well, Leica has FF rangefinders, Nikon/Canon/Sony have FF DSLR, Sony now has mirrorless FF, and I suppose Fuji can be lured into this category.

Panasonic and Olympus will not participate in the FF rat race is my guess.

Ricoh/Pentax is kinda goofy in that they are swimming somewhere in between. They do have, as Does Leica, digital MF. I imagine Pentax does well in this segment, however small. Speaking of s all, let's not forget Q, which was probably a moderate success, but now losing steam in my opinion. But, in terms of market coverage, being utterly uncompetitive in APS-C segment, I think Pentax has done pretty well to have survived so this far.

Oh one more thing - small compact market I am sure Ricoh + Pentax together they do fair.

So, in terms of FF venture, I think that what is holding them is still the pricing of FF sensor. It is a dilemma because by the time the pricing is of their liking, the market will be relatively speaking more saturated with FF sensor (well, that is really the reason why the pricing will come down . . . ). I say this based on K-3 pricing. They know the only way for them to compete is not to have a killer product, but lower pricing with quality meaning value. Logical. Typical big corporate pretending to think out side of the box, probably with sound market analysis.

I think this is so tricky. I can see why they want to see where the market is going in terms of sensor size. They see it as going both ways; one force being extremely small, and other being going larger. It really makes you wonder though if you are better off tying to make the pricing of digital MF so tantalizingly closer to that of FF. For example, $4,999 for an improved version of 645d, or even mirrorless 645d (I am sure this won't fly w traditionalists but...) and for those 645d owners who will complain they can have 645d FF for $9,999.

Or, they can do a miniature version of 645d w FF sensor with K mount. I mean what else is there to do with FF?

I am sure that the consensus of the general attitude in planning must be bullish since the takeover. Ricoh is a biggie. I imagine they are big enough to buy out both Nikon and Canon. But, I sense that they are conservative. Despite their deep pockets, they seem cautious, unlike Sony who throws money around, coming up with what I consider to be uniquely envisioned. I think in the long run Sony can overtake CaNikon and dominate, or sizzle out. I kind of think the former.

So our FF wishes are caught in the web of market forces and corporate politics and culture. It seems to have nothing to do with our needs and desire . . .
12-18-2013, 10:24 AM   #26
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Fuji said they don't have such plans. In a recent interview, they promised a series of firmware updates, though - so all is well
12-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
There are already hundreds of threads on the subject, but I think this is still a worthwhile discussion. As nice as a "de-crippled" body would be...
If they entered with a niche product (similar to the Nikon Df let's say), sales would probably be very low. On the other hand, entering with a pro product would require pro lenses and accessories: something that other companies have been doing successfully for years, and something that can't realistically be done overnight.
I clipped this down to what I see as the central conundrum. You say "as nice as a de crippled body would be" and then go right on to noting how Pentax lacks the lens library to support an actual full frame camera, and that's the problem. Pentax doesn't have the lens library to support a full frame camera. What lenses they have are ancient holdovers from the film days, they're not lenses that make people want to buy the system, and there aren't many of them at all. Canon literally has more crappy first-gen EOS lenses in their active-production library in TYOOL 2013 than Pentax's entire FF lineup.

De-crippling the lens mount is the fastest way to get a workable library of full-frame glass. It's sure not optimal, but it's the obvious way. Sony has a similar problem - their first-party lineup for the NEX system is pretty much trash, and there are some real jokes in there in terms of pricing. Apart from their putting image stabilization into fast primes - which I approve of, given that the lack of IBIS - they really don't have much that compels you to buy the system. Conversely though Sony is making the decision Pentax won't by enabling alt-glass users. They were the first to come up with focus peaking, they were the first to market with a full frame MILC system (apart from Leica, which is $$$$$), and they're coming out with a camera with a moving focal plane specifically designed to adapt alt glass.

And the Df would be selling a lot better if it didn't cost what it did. Twice as much as the D600 in return for marginal capabilities in additional pre-AI glass is an obviously bad deal, it's not surprising people aren't buying it. Given the wild success of the A7 it shouldn't be read as an indictment of cameras focused on servicing alt-glass. You guys focus on that too much as a way to excuse Pentax's stagnation.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 12-19-2013 at 12:56 PM.
12-19-2013, 01:00 PM   #28
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What I would personally love is a smaller APS-C DSLR that will match the styling of the HD DA Limiteds. These are beautiful, jewel-like, small lenses, and I think they deserve a beautiful, jewel-like DSLR to be mounted on. Something styled after MX or LX, smaller than the K-3/K-5 (about the size of the K-01). I'd even forgo the weather sealing to keep the size down.
12-19-2013, 11:19 PM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by drei3 Quote
What I would personally love is a smaller APS-C DSLR that will match the styling of the HD DA Limiteds. These are beautiful, jewel-like, small lenses, and I think they deserve a beautiful, jewel-like DSLR to be mounted on. Something styled after MX or LX, smaller than the K-3/K-5 (about the size of the K-01). I'd even forgo the weather sealing to keep the size down.
I absolutely agree with this. I know that I am definitely in the minority here but I see lots of room for Pentax to develop a camera that sits between their dSLR line up and the Q system. I think that the FF end is a money sink for Pentax with very little room for innovation any longer. Prices are dropping like a rock on that end, and even Nikon's latest entry is being soundly criticized for costing too much money.

I personally think the K-01 was a great start, and though discontinued I think there is still a huge amount of mileage in that idea.

Just my own 2 cents.
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