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12-01-2013, 02:16 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
if the MILCs would take over (which we don't see happening right now), it would take some years. IMO, Ricoh Imaging has time to first rebuild the K-mount, and then prepare for an eventual MILC dominance.
The alternative would be a desperate move to go MILC, losing their K-mount user base on the way, and being in the red for quite a long time.
I'm reasonably certain the 2014 will be a "DSLR year" for them. That's good for me.
I hope you're right about 2014, but I agree with your thinking about the strategy Ricoh has adopted for its Pentax brand. The most important thing that they've brought to the K-3 is the AA filter simulator, not so much for the technology, but for the signal that people in the design team are thinking innovatively. I can't see that level of thinking in the Sony A7, as good as it is as a camera system.

12-01-2013, 04:27 PM   #32
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Well, A7 is just a "full frame" NEX made for a budget.
We have an interesting year ahead, Ricoh will surely keep us entertained.

QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
MILC's are relatively new. But the pro-photogs I know love 'em (I just have cameras for fun by the way). An old Vietnam War veteran photog I know just flew into HK simply to get the new Oly EM-1 or EM-5 is it? Can't keep up. Other's too, all going for this Olympus thing. Supposed to be great. They all love it and stick their Voigtlanders and wotnot on the thing.

So, MILC's appeal is growing, from what I'm seeing because they are getting better and in the Oly's case the M4/3's sensor is a goodun'. Great! I also notice Ming Thein is nuts about the things. Says a lot.

Now comes along the first ever FF MILC. Never been demand for a FF MILC before, because there's never been one.

As the EVF technology improves and gets closer to OVF quality or at least acceptable, the old prism thing with a flappy mirrorbox and all its vibration is no longer required.
Mass market MILCs aren't that new, m4/3 being launched over 5 years ago. There's no explosive growth at the moment, and a large part of what they gained is due to very low prices... despite all the hype, there's a long way until they will reach the DSLRs. Pushing them back into a niche - what we're hearing in all those 5 years - won't happen before that

I find myself liking many old-style things that just works. Maybe it's my formation as a software developer; I just don't buy hype, and I just don't follow the crowd. Can adapt lenses? That's worse than using them natively. Insane fps count? But it drops a lot if you want AF and metering, or even just live feed in that EVF. Ming Thein? Nice photographer, he can write, too; but his preferences are irrelevant for me.

EVF technology getting acceptable, you say. Indeed, that's the deal: replacing perfectly working technology with something that is acceptable - and much cheaper to manufacture (or with nothing at all, since most MILCs sold don't have a viewfinder; that's the cheapest).
I'd rather have a perfectly working, high quality optical viewfinder - even if it would be more costly. YMMV.

QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
So I'm not so sure Pentax would do the right thing here with another DSLR. They're not going to sell more lenses just because they sell less cameras. If they can crack the "you can attach any lens you like to this full frame thing" and do it with that old Pentax carved from granite quality like they do . . . massive appeal. Would sell loads. Would likely sell even more of their excellent PK glass because of it.
But why would they sell less DSLRs cameras, when they have the advantage of selling to an installed user base instead of starting from scratch?
Adapting other lenses on a MILC was possible for years; yet it did not made that kind of difference. The DSLR sales are still vastly outnumbering the MILC ones; why do you think Ricoh will do so much better?
12-01-2013, 05:45 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
No I wouldn't, have any trouble showing you a K-3 image as sharp as that.
we are waiting...
12-01-2013, 06:01 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
It's not exactly helpful to post one shot from a camera/lens combination and effectively say: "beat this with your system". It proves nothing except that camera and lens can make a decent fist of displaying sharp facial hair and out of focus shirt buttons.
those xlnt ricoh k-3 sample shots had the same "fist" issues that were in the pic that i posted.

i was responding to the criticism that the dpreview shots weren't good, by posting a sharp dpreview sample pic.

i try to not let platform bias cloud my judgement... cameras are tools, nothing more.

12-01-2013, 08:17 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
those xlnt ricoh k-3 sample shots had the same "fist" issues that were in the pic that i posted.

i was responding to the criticism that the dpreview shots weren't good, by posting a sharp dpreview sample pic.

i try to not let platform bias cloud my judgement... cameras are tools, nothing more.
OK. That wasn't immediately obvious from your post, but that's fair enough.

When you say that cameras are tools, though, there are various grades and abilities of any tool, and any good tradeperson tends to stick to what they know is good for their work, reliable and value for money. I reckon you know that, anyway.
12-01-2013, 11:28 PM   #36
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QuoteQuote:
Kunzite: I find myself liking many old-style things that just works.
Yes. I quite agree with this. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
12-02-2013, 12:55 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i was responding to the criticism that the dpreview shots weren't good, by posting a sharp dpreview sample pic.
They're good (did I say otherwise?), it's just that they're not significantly better than the K-3's, even at high ISO. And I was talking about the studio samples.
12-02-2013, 04:37 AM   #38
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At the moment I think the K-3 will turn out superior images for most people, simply because it's an easier camera to use for everyday situations than the A7 (which to me does look like a tricky beast and I'm not sure my skills are up to the challenge).

However, since we're talking about the future development of Pentax FF in this sub-forum, I think this is well worth a read . . .

The demise of the DSLR ? Ming Thein | Photographer

QuoteQuote:
Put it another way: even the most complex of the mirrorless cameras – the OM-D with it’s 5-axis stabilisation system suspending the sensor – it’s still significantly simpler than the mirror and viewfinder assemblies required for even the cheapest DSLR. I was told by one of the manufacturers that a mirrorless camera has approximately 60-70% fewer parts than a DSLR, and can be produced in significantly less time.



Last edited by Parry; 12-02-2013 at 04:44 AM.
12-02-2013, 05:13 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
At the moment I think the K-3 will turn out superior images for most people, simply because it's an easier camera to use for everyday situations than the A7 (which to me does look like a tricky beast and I'm not sure my skills are up to the challenge).
Hmmm... Interesting, why would the A7 be tricky to use? I agree that Pentax UI is the superior one of the bunch, but none of the other brands use UI's that require intellect capable of understancing rocket science either.


"The demise" sounds so negative, as if something is disappearing. "The evolution of the DSLR" would have been better, imho.
12-02-2013, 05:56 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Hmmm... Interesting, why would the A7 be tricky to use? I agree that Pentax UI is the superior one of the bunch, but none of the other brands use UI's that require intellect capable of understancing rocket science either.



"The demise" sounds so negative, as if something is disappearing. "The evolution of the DSLR" would have been better, imho.

My manual focusing skills aren't world class, but I do fancy the challenge. For people like me, the K series DSLR's are quite easy to use even though the Pentax AF system isn't that wonderful.
12-02-2013, 06:05 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
My manual focusing skills aren't world class, but I do fancy the challenge. For people like me, the K series DSLR's are quite easy to use even though the Pentax AF system isn't that wonderful.
Ah, I understand. Though, manual focussing on any Pentax DSLR is much more of a challenge then it would be on the A7 due to all the focussing aids right there in its VF.
12-02-2013, 06:58 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Ah, I understand. Though, manual focussing on any Pentax DSLR is much more of a challenge then it would be on the A7 due to all the focussing aids right there in its VF.
That's true 'n all. This is about the best I can do with the K 50/f1.2 at f/1.2 handheld on the IIs . . .

12-02-2013, 08:18 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
However, since we're talking about the future development of Pentax FF in this sub-forum, I think this is well worth a read . . .

The demise of the DSLR ? Ming Thein | Photographer
CIPA just published the data for October.
DSLR:MILC ratio is about 4.61:1 (volume), respectively 5.50 (value), while the MILC makers are preparing to flood the market with cheap viewfinderless cameras.
Compared with the previous year, DSLRs are at 80.8%, while MILCs are at 74,1%.
Again, where is this "demise of the DSLR" people are talking about?
12-02-2013, 08:41 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
CIPA just published the data for October.
DSLR:MILC ratio is about 4.61:1 (volume), respectively 5.50 (value), while the MILC makers are preparing to flood the market with cheap viewfinderless cameras.
Compared with the previous year, DSLRs are at 80.8%, while MILCs are at 74,1%.
Again, where is this "demise of the DSLR" people are talking about?
But things change. Markets and technologies move on.

Olympus pins future hopes on mirrorless format

Olympus pins future hopes on mirrorless format | Reuters

This Oly OMD thing is proving popular too.

It takes a while for new methods to replace old. SLR cameras were first marketed in 1884, the C.R Smith's Monocular Duplex, with Asahi first marketing the 35mm SLR in 1952 after development of the Pentaprism in 1949. So mirrorless digital having been around for five years is not very long at all.
12-02-2013, 08:57 AM   #45
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But they didn't; look at the facts: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201310_e.pdf

Olympus abandoned their DSLR line, they have no choice than to "pins future hopes on mirrorless format". Even the article you're linking to, talks about "hoping" to break even, "dramatically poor sales" (instead of the over-inflated expectations) and heavy losses.
If we'll have to wait 68 years (from 2004, the year Epson RD-1 was launched, that would make 2072), what's all the fuss? Just kidding, but you see, their point is that DSLRs will "die" soon enough that we should worry (which means we should avoid buying DSLRs). They're attempting to create a self fulfilling prophecy effect.
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