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01-18-2014, 10:48 AM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
Some kit is good for some stuff, other kit for another. But all within a budget.
I think one of the great probems Ricoh has with the Pentax brand is getting people to understand what stuff their 'kit' is good for, at the price. Many people criticize Pentax for what it isn't - when in fact it was never intended to be the things they complain that is isn't.

But who really knows what it is?

01-18-2014, 10:57 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think one of the great probems Ricoh has with the Pentax brand is getting people to understand what stuff their 'kit' is good for, at the price. Many people criticize Pentax for what it isn't - when in fact it was never intended to be the things they complain that is isn't.

But who really knows what it is?

I mean I think it's great and want to hang on to most of it. Need to dump some lenses though, too many.

For all round shooty shooty I've really bonded with the K-series (although this was my first ever camera, K-5 then IIs). And I'm not the sharpest tool in the box either, so understanding all this stuff took a while.

So I have no complaints. None. Not really. Just fancy trying something else besides. I know this is probably a waste of money but I don't have a mortgage and I don't drive a Porsche.


There's your answer. What is it? Great all round shooty shooty!
01-18-2014, 12:44 PM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What amazes me is how people are all atwitter about current cutting-edge technology coming close to a three-year-old camera that was really a K7 in a bigger box - and who knows how old the sensor technology already was at the time?
It may be my general ignorance of sensor tech and where it's going, but I find the rate at which it's still advancing to be pretty amazing. I think it's also a good example of how the generally shorter product cycles of smaller format cameras can take away some of the larger sensor advantage if you're willing to run on the faster moving upgrade treadmill.
01-18-2014, 12:47 PM   #244
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In general I agree, but in the market it seems like the APS-C sensor tech hasn't improved since 2010.

01-18-2014, 02:02 PM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
In general I agree, but in the market it seems like the APS-C sensor tech hasn't improved since 2010.
I think the 24 megapixel sensors are an improvement in resolution, if not in dynamic range and high iso shooting.
01-18-2014, 02:24 PM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Agreed, my main point there was that the argument "If you really want to step up in IQ, it makes more sense to upgrade to 645D than FF" doesn't hold a lot of water when you realize that the difference between an aps-c camera and FF camera can be as little as $500. I don't know that you made that particular argument, but a lot of folks do.

So many people lump a $8000+ body (+ lenses) in with a $1600-$3000 body as the same level of 'upgrade', and it's actually a vast cost delta for not as great of an IQ delta.

Foe people who really could use a 645D, already have some lenses for it and are not affected by the body price, it makes a lot of sense. For the typical 'upgrader'... not so much.

.
I agree, most people here have PK mount lenses not 645 mount lenses and would like to use the PK mount lenses on a sensor that is native to their original FOV like 35mm is wide angle instead of a 1.5x crop.
01-18-2014, 02:32 PM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the 24 megapixel sensors are an improvement in resolution, if not in dynamic range and high iso shooting.
Of course... but I've never had a picture that was bad because of the lack of pixel density, even when heavily cropped.

The sensors haven't improved in DR or SNR or color renditions according to DxO since 2010. It might be a breakout year now or next year, but right now all levels of sensors seem to have stagnated.
01-18-2014, 02:53 PM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Of course... but I've never had a picture that was bad because of the lack of pixel density, even when heavily cropped.

The sensors haven't improved in DR or SNR or color renditions according to DxO since 2010. It might be a breakout year now or next year, but right now all levels of sensors seem to have stagnated.
I have, but it is definitely tough to make the most of 24 megapixels. The higher the pixel density, the easier it is to have some blur in your photo.

01-20-2014, 12:16 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote

Throughout history convenience has always triumphed over quality. The ultimate image quality comes from very large negatives. One 16x20 negative will contact print a stunning picture. But it certainly isn't convenient.
I've been saying this forever and it really applies to so many tech areas historically

Vinyl -> 8 track -> cassette -> CD -> iPod -> iPhone -> streaming

In Music things like SACD never took off because it didn't provide any convenience upgrade. Music fidelity much got worse over the years in favor of convenience.

VHS -> DVD -> OnDemand/Streaming/DVR


In movies laserdisc failed partly because of the giant disc size despite destroying VHS in quality. DVDs took off because of the convenience it added. Blurrays never really took off and never will because the idea of physical discs is a doomed one.
Im mean seriously, how many people do you really know that actively buy blurays or even have a bluray player?

Computers are all getting smaller and smaller. Anyone see the lastest Mac Pro?


I don't think 4k takes off until years from now when we have affordable OLED type of ultra thin displays will dominated and then 4k will just be a by product of that. But the funny part is majority of people currently do not view proper 1080 do to lousy compression from cable companies and streaming yet they are trying to push 4k. How do they expect people to view 4k? Lets figure out of how get proper 1080 content to people and then we can talk 4k.
01-20-2014, 02:22 PM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by richmondthefish Quote
I've been saying this forever and it really applies to so many tech areas historically

Vinyl -> 8 track -> cassette -> CD -> iPod -> iPhone -> streaming

In Music things like SACD never took off because it didn't provide any convenience upgrade. Music fidelity much got worse over the years in favor of convenience.

VHS -> DVD -> OnDemand/Streaming/DVR
This is all true, which is why it's hard to see a leveling-off point in which aps-c DSLR is safe.

The folks in the lower-mid price range are going to be swayed by convenience more than image quality or even performance. The folks looking to create lasting, quality images while taking a small** hit on convenience will also be looking for the most delta from phone cams in their price range, and the manufacturers will be looking to keep the upgrade urge going - these things converge on FF being the main choice in the $1000+ camera range in the years to come. The lower tiers will be decimated.

**just 'small', because in the near future all DSLRs and MILCs will be internet-connected in some way, either directly or through a proxy device like a phone

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 01-20-2014 at 05:19 PM.
01-20-2014, 03:44 PM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by richmondthefish Quote
Im mean seriously, how many people do you really know that actively buy blurays or even have a bluray player?
A lot in Australia - a very practical and affordable way to watch Full HD content. I buy blurays almost exclusively for their 3D content as well as HD movies, and have two 3D bluray players, both of which are inexpensive but highly capable and of excellent quality. The video quality is just brilliant and I don't need to invest in a huge internet data plan with 4G to have the convenience of downloading such massive movie files. Eventually, yes, it will all go towards HDDs and streaming, but for now, it is more economical for me to buy bluray discs than to have the internet plan and big HDDs to support downloading all the Full HD videos/movies I'd like to purchase.
01-21-2014, 11:01 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Eventually, yes, it will all go towards HDDs and streaming, but for now, it is more economical for me to buy bluray discs than to have the internet plan and big HDDs to support downloading all the Full HD videos/movies I'd like to purchase.



Well im sure that is true but the point i was trying to make is that bluray never took off like DVDs did in the 90s. There was no passing of the tourch....CDs took over cassettes, DVDs took over VHS. Bluray didn't add any convenience and pretty much was doomed from the get go to never take over because of that. You can't even drive to a store to rent a anymore in the U.S. for the most part. There is just too many choices for getting your content today. Blurray will still be around but it goes back to the discussion that cameras manufactures will also have to adjust to how people take pictures in the future.
01-21-2014, 11:07 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
This is all true, which is why it's hard to see a leveling-off point in which aps-c DSLR is safe.

The folks in the lower-mid price range are going to be swayed by convenience more than image quality or even performance. The folks looking to create lasting, quality images while taking a small** hit on convenience will also be looking for the most delta from phone cams in their price range, and the manufacturers will be looking to keep the upgrade urge going - these things converge on FF being the main choice in the $1000+ camera range in the years to come. The lower tiers will be decimated.

**just 'small', because in the near future all DSLRs and MILCs will be internet-connected in some way, either directly or through a proxy device like a phone

.

Yep APS-C DSLRs are in a sticky situation. You now have smaller FF cameras to compete with as well. The only real way to keep the GAS effect going for consumers is to keep uping the ante with FF and or smaller sizes. Sony has the right idea....
01-21-2014, 11:47 AM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by richmondthefish Quote
Yep APS-C DSLRs are in a sticky situation. You now have smaller FF cameras to compete with as well. The only real way to keep the GAS effect going for consumers is to keep uping the ante with FF and or smaller sizes. Sony has the right idea....
They are in a sticky situation.

I downloaded the D800e sample RAW files tonight from photographyblog. ISO80, 6400, 12,800 and 25,600.

So I had a go with them in LR5. I was working away on one thinking, okay the noise isn't bad and I can deal with it, looks good. Didn't realize I was working on the ISO 25,600 image, naturally thought it was the 6400 image.

It's a different world.

Heading back into London for a meeting on Wednesday so long as the Bangkok protests don't close down the airport or ATC . . . and the APS-C kit is getting tossed. It just doesn't do what I really want.
01-21-2014, 12:40 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by richmondthefish Quote
I've been saying this forever and it really applies to so many tech areas historically

Vinyl -> 8 track -> cassette -> CD -> iPod -> iPhone -> streaming

In Music things like SACD never took off because it didn't provide any convenience upgrade. Music fidelity much got worse over the years in favor of convenience.

VHS -> DVD -> OnDemand/Streaming/DVR


In movies laserdisc failed partly because of the giant disc size despite destroying VHS in quality. DVDs took off because of the convenience it added. Blurrays never really took off and never will because the idea of physical discs is a doomed one.
Im mean seriously, how many people do you really know that actively buy blurays or even have a bluray player?

Computers are all getting smaller and smaller. Anyone see the lastest Mac Pro?


I don't think 4k takes off until years from now when we have affordable OLED type of ultra thin displays will dominated and then 4k will just be a by product of that. But the funny part is majority of people currently do not view proper 1080 do to lousy compression from cable companies and streaming yet they are trying to push 4k. How do they expect people to view 4k? Lets figure out of how get proper 1080 content to people and then we can talk 4k.
Netflix, youtube and many other sites stream 4K video today and 4K UHD TVs are selling for about the same price that 1080p HDTVs were selling for a year ago. The Samsung Note 3 smartphone shoots 4K and they sold 10 million in just two months.
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