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01-21-2014, 12:43 PM   #256
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Same old same old , people comparing $3000 cameras with $1000 and saying , wow the $3000 camera is better. I guess the economics thing is lost on you guys. Pentax has had trouble keeping up with the demand for K-3s. Apparently it caught them completely off guard. So, there are A7s, D610s and 6Ds all crowding the K-3's market, so exactly when is this "sticky situation" going to kick in? If you're predicting FF is going to be the same price as APS-c, not going to happen, if you're predicting some of us won't buy APS-c even if it's more expensive than FF, well that's strike two.

If there was an APS-c "sticky situation" then the K-3 shouldn't be selling like it is. Maybe they're losing a fuew FF enthusiasts, but as far as I can tell, they're more than making up for it by re-engaging a lot of older Pentax users who haven't upgraded for a while. After all, at launch you could get a refurb D600 or 6D for cheaper than you could get a K-3. Sold sold out the pre-order in Canada. Stores ended up trying to beg stock from other suppliers. Why didn't all those people just buy 6Ds or A7s or D610s?



You guys feed each other with these tangents that completely ignore reality.

I'm really happy for the FF guys they have some affordable choices. What confuses me is the need to state APS-c will in some way suffer because of that. Unlike the poster above, I looked over my choices and said a D800 is half the cost of a 645D. Save your money twice as long and get what you want, not a stop gap.



Notice, in the red spectrum, the A7r/D800 are already past their diffraction limit. Why would you settle for that?
(Bottom pair of images.)

People see what they want to see in these kinds of speculations. Reality is something different. Every format has it's issues. It takes most people a very long time to run up against them, many never do. In that case, cheapest wins.


Last edited by normhead; 01-21-2014 at 12:54 PM.
01-21-2014, 01:02 PM   #257
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I, for one, am quite happy that FF is cheaper than APS-C.
01-21-2014, 01:27 PM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
They are in a sticky situation.

I downloaded the D800e sample RAW files tonight from photographyblog. ISO80, 6400, 12,800 and 25,600.

So I had a go with them in LR5. I was working away on one thinking, okay the noise isn't bad and I can deal with it, looks good. Didn't realize I was working on the ISO 25,600 image, naturally thought it was the 6400 image.

It's a different world.

Heading back into London for a meeting on Wednesday so long as the Bangkok protests don't close down the airport or ATC . . . and the APS-C kit is getting tossed. It just doesn't do what I really want.
But, there is a one stop difference in iso between a D800 and a K5 (SNR). That means if you are satisfied with a 25,600 image on a D800, you should be satisfied with a 12,800 image in a K5. It's the same sensor, just bigger -- hence one stop difference.
01-21-2014, 02:21 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Same old same old , people comparing $3000 cameras with $1000 and saying , wow the $3000 camera is better. I guess the economics thing is lost on you guys. Pentax has had trouble keeping up with the demand for K-3s. Apparently it caught them completely off guard. So, there are A7s, D610s and 6Ds all crowding the K-3's market, so exactly when is this "sticky situation" going to kick in? If you're predicting FF is going to be the same price as APS-c, not going to happen, if you're predicting some of us won't buy APS-c even if it's more expensive than FF, well that's strike two.

If there was an APS-c "sticky situation" then the K-3 shouldn't be selling like it is. Maybe they're losing a fuew FF enthusiasts, but as far as I can tell, they're more than making up for it by re-engaging a lot of older Pentax users who haven't upgraded for a while. After all, at launch you could get a refurb D600 or 6D for cheaper than you could get a K-3. Sold sold out the pre-order in Canada. Stores ended up trying to beg stock from other suppliers. Why didn't all those people just buy 6Ds or A7s or D610s?



You guys feed each other with these tangents that completely ignore reality.

I'm really happy for the FF guys they have some affordable choices. What confuses me is the need to state APS-c will in some way suffer because of that. Unlike the poster above, I looked over my choices and said a D800 is half the cost of a 645D. Save your money twice as long and get what you want, not a stop gap.



Notice, in the red spectrum, the A7r/D800 are already past their diffraction limit. Why would you settle for that?
(Bottom pair of images.)

People see what they want to see in these kinds of speculations. Reality is something different. Every format has it's issues. It takes most people a very long time to run up against them, many never do. In that case, cheapest wins.
645D :
http://208.43.255.194/PRODS/645D/FULLRES/645DhSLI0100_NR_MED.JPG


A7r :
http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/sony-a7r/FULLRES/AA7RhSLI00050NR2D.JPG

Why would anyone pay 4x as much for what ?

01-21-2014, 02:23 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Same old same old , people comparing $3000 cameras with $1000 and saying , wow the $3000 camera is better. I guess the economics thing is lost on you guys. Pentax has had trouble keeping up with the demand for K-3s. Apparently it caught them completely off guard. So, there are A7s, D610s and 6Ds all crowding the K-3's market, so exactly when is this "sticky situation" going to kick in? If you're predicting FF is going to be the same price as APS-c, not going to happen, if you're predicting some of us won't buy APS-c even if it's more expensive than FF, well that's strike two.
The conclusions (the text attached to the image) are strange indeed.

They state that the A7r produces crisper detail in the mosaic area and yet rave about the fact the 645D can resolve the coloured dots that make up the actual printing within the same area - they appear to be swayed by the shape of forest and don't much care for the leaves on the trees. One implication is that the A7r is outperforming the 645D but the reality is the other way around. Image accutance isn't really actual resolving power and their comments kind of support that. Apart from the cameras, the nature of the subject would obviously contribute to the overall "look" of the final output, and thus, commenting how much "better" a printed label looks from one camera than another, is a strange way to judge when the subject (label) isn't really like that in and of itself anyway. Better in this case is obviously not meaning more accurate.

e.g. Look through one telescope at a globular cluster and see a well defined sphere or disc shape and in another see a scattered mottled form sprinkled with stars - one looks well defined as a larger shape whereas the other looks irregular and less so but it takes a much better telescope to resolve the stars and people aren't fooled by that 'well defined' disk from the smaller scope.

Last edited by bossa; 01-21-2014 at 02:32 PM.
01-21-2014, 02:42 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Your math is suspect. I can get a 645D for 7K, before X-mas they were on sale for 6k. That's twice as much. And when folks say the same thing looking at APS-c and FF images, you guys have kittens.
The real question is why would anyone pay for a D610 or 6D when you can get a K-3 for half the price. Oh, wait, now I remember, because you shoot in the dark..

Meanwhile the number of excellent low light images taken with K-3s in the K-3 sample thread just keep piling up. Reality never seems to enter these conversations.
01-21-2014, 02:54 PM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
You spend your money on what you want. Why do you have to convince somebody else to buy a Sony product? I'm not interested in the A7. Nor really in the 645D. But it is clear to me that the 645D handles red better and resolves a little better as well.
01-21-2014, 03:20 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Your math is suspect. I can get a 645D for 7K, before X-mas they were on sale for 6k. That's twice as much.
Factor in the lenses.

Oh, and factor in the slow FPS, worse DR, worse low-light performance, worse AF, bigger kit... all for more than double the price! (marked down from almost triple!)

645D is great for a few, dedicated applications, but it's silly to claim it's a general-purpose replacement for a modern FF camera. MFD is not meant to play that role, from any manufacturer.


QuoteQuote:
Meanwhile the number of excellent low light images taken with K-3s in the K-3 sample thread just keep piling up. Reality never seems to enter these conversations.
Ah, Reality...


Last edited by jsherman999; 01-21-2014 at 03:30 PM.
01-21-2014, 04:03 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You spend your money on what you want. Why do you have to convince somebody else to buy a Sony product? I'm not interested in the A7. Nor really in the 645D. But it is clear to me that the 645D handles red better and resolves a little better as well.
Really ?

645D vs A7r
01-21-2014, 06:20 PM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Netflix, youtube and many other sites stream 4K video today and 4K UHD TVs are selling for about the same price that 1080p HDTVs were selling for a year ago. The Samsung Note 3 smartphone shoots 4K and they sold 10 million in just two months.

They are streaming 4k but the challenge remains to get 4k to mainstream TV. People will not be dumping their current TVs for UHD unless those new displays can really offer something in the 'convenience' area which would be ultra thin OLED. If they can actually get 4k broadcast handled(they are not even close) and there are new affordable ultra thin OLED type displays I can see this will become mainstream in time.

This isn't like the move to HDTV that took place in the mid 2000's. Back then there were 2 major things going on....one was flat panels TVs becoming mainstream and two was HDTV being broadcast. Thats a perfect storm for causing people to upgrade. People are not going to see anywhere near the benefits with the move to UHD even with OLED. There are tons of channels that are still not even displayed in a HD format. Its a progress, 4k will continue to build a user base but its a long road.
01-21-2014, 06:39 PM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote

645D is great for a few, dedicated applications, but it's silly to claim it's a general-purpose replacement for a modern FF camera. MFD is not meant to play that role, from any manufacturer.
... or at least up until now!
01-21-2014, 07:57 PM - 1 Like   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
I agree, MF is a completely different thing altogether in my opinion. It's for studio pro work.

Just priced up a Nikon D800e with Nikon grip and 3x spare Nikon bats, an SB910 flash and the sort of lenses (4No.) I'd actually use and the total has come to a bit less than I've spent on Pentax APS-C cameras and lenses, flash etc.

I'm not running Pentax down here, they're seriously great cameras and lenses, it's more about me having selected the wrong gear through ignorance and buying too many lenses I never use. Same goes for tripods. Tried the mid-range stuff and it wasn't quite up to the job.

As someone coming out of the camera newbie stage I recommend anyone wanting to get into this just buys a fixed lens camera with full manual control that shoots RAW and a good PP package to learn on for two years. Then if you're still into it really research the hell out of the thing and go for the good stuff (but not too many lenses you don't need), because an awful lot of money is wasted on mid-range kit.
I do not have a digital camera larger than APS-C however my film based medium and large format cameras are used 99.999% of the time in the field. I used to have access to a film based 645 and that was a lovely camera to use in the field, even hand held.

Your point about buying the wrong stuff is right on, applies equally well to those who first get into large format photography. In fact one of the first pieces of advise to newcombers to that format when they ask what camera they should buy is it does not matter as the first camera you buy is not going to be the right one anyways.

I do disagree with you about mid range gear, it is all that most people will ever need. My K-r runs circles around the best that Nikon had to offer earlier and that was good enough for National Geographic etc. A K3 or K50 produces more than enough quality and has more than enough features for most amatuer photographers. My friend has ordered a 800E so I will borrow it for a weekend to give it a spin but with the experience I have had with the larger Nikons (D1X,D2X,D200,D300 and D3) I much perfer a smaller body and smaller lenses. My friend also uses a D7000 for when he has to carry a camera around all day due to the differences in size and weight. Almost all cameras out today are good. I would not say the same for all lenses. In my 40 years of photography it has been clear to me that for most of us it is the photographer that makes the difference and for those instances that it is the gear it is usually specialized work anyways.

Good luck with your 800E. The 14-24 is a tremendouse lens if that is one on your list.
01-21-2014, 08:21 PM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You spend your money on what you want. Why do you have to convince somebody else to buy a Sony product? I'm not interested in the A7. Nor really in the 645D. But it is clear to me that the 645D handles red better and resolves a little better as well.
Damn that pesky Pentax. If they don't go out of business of their own accord soon somebody will just have to go down there and shut the doors by force.

After all, we've already decided for you what is best for you, so why should Pentax be permitted to keep making inferior cameras that ill-informed consumers like you continue to buy for misguided, sentimental reasons just because you want them?

You really can't argue with them you know.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-22-2014 at 08:16 AM.
01-21-2014, 10:35 PM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But, there is a one stop difference in iso between a D800 and a K5 (SNR). That means if you are satisfied with a 25,600 image on a D800, you should be satisfied with a 12,800 image in a K5. It's the same sensor, just bigger -- hence one stop difference.
Bruv, have a go with it. You can download the RAW files taken at different ISO's at the photographyblog review. I couldn't believe how much noise reduction could be done on very high ISO and still make the pic look sharp. The difference in ISO noise performance does not appear to be linear.

Norm's right about the price difference, but don't forget in the UK the K-3 isn't $1000. It's 1100. 1300 with grip. That's US$2000!! Also the lenses are generally priced in Pounds what you guys enjoy in a more reasonable currency with more reasonable VAT. I've only recently realised quite how expensive that country is. I can't buy in Thailand (2nd home) because the back-up and warranty issues here for anything other than rice are dodgy.

Also size. But I've got big hands and can't handle small cameras. Can't use the K-5 without a grip. I've handled FF and it kind of suits . . .

I'll stop going on now.
01-22-2014, 12:56 AM   #270
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1100? Buy from the continental Europe, you should be able to save some 150.
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