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01-23-2014, 06:30 AM   #301
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Look at it this way. The step from APS-C to FF is crop 1.5 to 1.0. Now from FF to 645D is only to half that: crop 0.75. (Surface area APS-C vs FF vs 645D is respectively 370mm˛ vs 860mm˛ vs 1452mm˛) If only the price of the 645D would reflect that smaller increase, then things would be different. But it's in fact much larger. I know, I know, that price is so high partially because the market for MF is much smaller... But why was that market so much smaller again?

NB. As a funny little aside, APS-H is only 1.27 crop. (Surface area of 519mm˛) Almost exactly halfway in between APS-C and FF. But dare not mention APS-H around here. They'll bring out the torches and start an angry mob, not realising the 645D sensor is just as half-arsed as APS-H.

01-23-2014, 06:35 AM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Look at it this way. The step from APS-C to FF is crop 1.5 to 1.0. Now from FF to 645D is only to half that: crop 0.75. (Surface area APS-C vs FF vs 645D is respectively 370mm˛ vs 860mm˛ vs 1452mm˛) If only the price of the 645D would reflect that smaller increase, then things would be different. But it's in fact much larger. I know, I know, that price is so high partially because the market for MF is much smaller... But why was that market so much smaller again?

NB. As a funny little aside, APS-H is only 1.27 crop. (Surface area of 519mm˛) Almost exactly halfway in between APS-C and FF. But dare not mention APS-H around here. They'll bring out the torches and start an angry mob, not realising the 645D sensor is just as half-arsed as APS-H.
It's not how big your sensor is, it's how you use it!

Here's me banging on about FF, but just have a look at these from the EM-1 . . .

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01-23-2014, 06:46 AM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
Let's not take it all too seriously. It's just a laugh.
It really is, the whole argument for any system is predicated on the size of the sensor meeting your needs. But as some have shown pretty conclusively, it really doesn't make much difference at print size. I love the pixel peeping etc. but,

QuoteQuote:
The difference between FF and MF is not worth the dollars, as I've shown from the post above, but the difference between APS-C and FF is becoming so. Perhaps not quite there yet, but the gap is closing regards costs.
Until I'm convinced I'm getting more saleable prints, the cheapest system wins. I don't see how you get around APS-c for portable telephoto work. It's better for telephoto work, it's good enough for landscape... great compromise.

I suspect there are just as many people moving down from APS-c to 4/3, people moving up to APS-c from 4/3, people moving from FF back to APS-c people moving from APS-c to FF, for me it's hard to say, what is attend. The 6D, D610, D800 and A7r being released certainly means there are more FF choices out there, and as the price comes down, economics kicks in and people are going to go for them, but whether or not they stay with them for their next camera purchase remains to be seen. Is there trend to FF or is it temporary bump. I've seen evidence for arguing both.

QuoteQuote:
645D vs A7r shows that it is not worthless but not worth the much higher price IMHO.
Whether comparing APS-c to FF or FF to MF, the issue for me is will this sell any more prints. Pixel peeping on a computer means little in terms of viewing prints at full size. Most people can't tell the difference between a print done at 200 DPI as opposed to 300 DPI unless it's black and white lines viewed from 8 inches away. And you'd have to cut out similar sections of the print to view them side by side. IN real life, a 14 Mp Merrill image stacks up nicely, print wise to a 36 Mp D800. It's hard to justify going to even FF, looking at prints, although looking at my computer screens at 92 DPI is interesting.

QuoteQuote:
Can you post the Imaging Resources test shots taken with the K-3 and the D800e, both at ISO3200 please? Focus on the red cloth.
I'll take your word for it.... I'm not interested in any ISO 3200 image forget about one taken on the red cloth, the K-3 image I posted at base ISO is bad enough. But as an artistic representation of a piece of red cloth, it's more than good enough.
01-23-2014, 07:12 AM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by formercanuck Quote
I suspect that Pentax is holding their line on APS-C vs. FF for many reasons.
How many people do you actually see purchasing / using FF these days.
I'd expect 'some' high end professionals that
a) Shoot for someone else (i.e. given the gear and shoot) - journalists, magazines.
b) Shoot for medium/large prints (own your own gallery) - where it is critiqued.
c) Shoot for sports events (high/fast frame - quick zoom
No...

Here are two concepts people often lump together - the first is true, so they assume the second is also true (or they possibly confuse them as being the same statement.) :

* The percentage of pros who shoot FF is high (True)
* The percentage of FF shooters who are pros is high (False)

Here's the set intersect, picture is better:



'FF' is almost all enthusiasts/hobbiests. There are not enough pros in the US to account for D3 sales alone here, let alone all FF camera model sales from Nikon/Canon/Sony combined.

Pentax doesn't need to lose sleep over that smaller circle (nor does Sony for that matter.)

.


Last edited by jsherman999; 01-23-2014 at 07:32 AM.
01-23-2014, 07:31 AM   #305
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It is funny. Looking at the post your A7 photos thread/post your full frame photos thread, my biggest complaint is that having a larger sensor does not necessarily turn people into great photographers. Who would have thunk it. There are good photos and lots of not so good photos too. Actually, to my eyes, there is better photography going on in the K5 photos/K3 photos threads than in those.
01-23-2014, 07:36 AM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is funny. Looking at the post your A7 photos thread/post your full frame photos thread, my biggest complaint is that having a larger sensor does not necessarily turn people into great photographers. Who would have thunk it.
Of course not, but you already knew that, I hope, right?

You can take thinly-veiled cheap shots all you like, but the fact remains that the larger format makes it easier to do things, give you more options, cleaner output, and are, for some, more fun and less frustrating to use. And if 'more fun, less frustration' leads to more iterations, more shooting, that indeed leads to better photography.

C'mon, statements like yours are transparent. If the subject makes you angry enough to do that, maybe just skip it? There are plenty of other threads not dealing with FF.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 01-23-2014 at 07:50 AM.
01-23-2014, 07:44 AM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote

NB. As a funny little aside, APS-H is only 1.27 crop. (Surface area of 519mm˛) Almost exactly halfway in between APS-C and FF. But dare not mention APS-H around here. They'll bring out the torches and start an angry mob, not realising the 645D sensor is just as half-arsed as APS-H.
I think the problem with aps-H isn't that it wouldn't be better than aps-c, it's that it's probably not feasible to expect Sony or whoever to offer the sensors at a volume cost, since it would be kinda 'special order' at this point. You probably couldn't get them any cheaper than FF sensors because of that.
01-23-2014, 07:44 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is funny. Looking at the post your A7 photos thread/post your full frame photos thread, my biggest complaint is that having a larger sensor does not necessarily turn people into great photographers. Who would have thunk it. There are good photos and lots of not so good photos too. Actually, to my eyes, there is better photography going on in the K5 photos/K3 photos threads than in those.
Then do you also assume getting a 800,000 $ Ferrari turns people into good drivers too then? The size of a persons wallet and their skills are two very different things, regardless of the topic. Remember the 645D thread about the person shooting nothing but cat-pictures?

01-23-2014, 07:45 AM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Of course not, but you already knew that, I hope, right?

You can take thinly-veiled cheap shots all you like, but the fact remains that the larger format makes it easier to do things, give you more options, cleaner output, and are, for some, more fun and less frustrating to use.

C'mon, statements like yours are transparent. If the subject makes you angry enough to do that, maybe just skip it? There are plenty of other threads not dealing with FF.

.
I didn't think it was thinly veiled, at least I hope not... I will try not to make any more snide remarks, though, sorry about that and not intending to take shots at anyone in particular.

Honestly, the people who take the best photos on full frame were making the best photos on APS-C prior to their switch. And they are generally folks who aren't full frame evangelists.
01-23-2014, 07:48 AM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Then do you also assume getting a 800,000 $ Ferrari turns people into good drivers too then? The size of a persons wallet and their skills are two very different things, regardless of the topic. Remember the 645D thread about the person shooting nothing but cat-pictures?
I don't want to say anything snarky (I already did and feel kind of bad about that). There is a little impression that I get that what the world needs is larger sensored cameras to take better photos. But there is more to it than that -- including a good subject, good light, nice glass and some photographic skills (not necessarily in that order).
01-23-2014, 07:50 AM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Of course not, but you already knew that, I hope, right?

You can take thinly-veiled cheap shots all you like, but the fact remains that the larger format makes it easier to do things, give you more options, cleaner output, and are, for some, more fun and less frustrating to use.

C'mon, statements like yours are transparent. If the subject makes you angry enough to do that, maybe just skip it? There are plenty of other threads not dealing with FF.

.
I think this is why I'm after a change to FF with fewer lenses to balance the cost and just meet my needs (Norm's spot on about that).

Perhaps I think it'll make me better at this, but really I know I'll still fumble the wheels in confusion just at the right moment to screw it all up.
01-23-2014, 07:56 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parry Quote
I'm 40 soon and I'd never even had a hobby before. Never had anything fancy at all. No interests, just solid work for twenty years in a miserable business.
Oh boy. Roll it forward twenty years.

If you only knew.
01-23-2014, 08:02 AM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Oh boy. Roll it forward twenty years.

If you only knew.
There's more to come?
01-23-2014, 08:14 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I didn't think it was thinly veiled, at least I hope not... I will try not to make any more snide remarks, though, sorry about that and not intending to take shots at anyone in particular.

Honestly, the people who take the best photos on full frame were making the best photos on APS-C prior to their switch. And they are generally folks who aren't full frame evangelists.
Fair enough, I've been known to let snark creep in myself. (naaaah... )
01-23-2014, 08:32 AM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't want to say anything snarky (I already did and feel kind of bad about that). There is a little impression that I get that what the world needs is larger sensored cameras to take better photos. But there is more to it than that -- including a good subject, good light, nice glass and some photographic skills (not necessarily in that order).
Go ahead, snark away. We're in a free world.

I'm glad that there are people snapping crappy shots with equipment costing thousands of dollars, because they help fuel developements. Those people may also just have a different style and think likewise about us with our photos. It's all personal and subjective. That's why we should stick with measurable things to determine what is better. Like MTF charts, resolution, format and pixels. And those do all say that cameras with FF sensors have some advantages.

I don't see FF dying, because the excuses to get one are unlimited.
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