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01-23-2014, 08:42 AM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't want to say anything snarky (I already did and feel kind of bad about that). There is a little impression that I get that what the world needs is larger sensored cameras to take better photos. But there is more to it than that -- including a good subject, good light, nice glass and some photographic skills (not necessarily in that order).
Full frame will never make a bad photo good.

Full frame will let you do more with a good photo. It's free. Not really any downside other than frame rate (and that could be likely be taken care of by binning), which is why some people are confused as to why Pentax hasn't released a FF camera.

01-23-2014, 08:44 AM   #317
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Go ahead, snark away. We're in a free world.

I don't see FF dying, because the excuses to get one are unlimited.
Exactly... and lots of people have the money to buy them, expensive or not, need them or not, even use them or not.
01-23-2014, 08:48 AM   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Exactly... and lots of people have the money to buy them, expensive or not, need them or not, even use them or not.
I've a meeting with this bloke in London next week. All the gear, I mean £20k of Nikon FF and he doesn't know what RAW is. Really he doesn't. When I tried to explain RAW and Lightroom all he asked was "Does it do auto?"

01-23-2014, 08:57 AM   #319
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The same people that say you can't see the difference in a 1080p HDTV over a 4K UHD TV at normal viewing distance will say people will see the difference between a 40mp 645D and a 36mp FF even though the 1080p image is only 2mp and the 4K image is 4x larger at 8mp.
This misses the point. Sensor size is only one factor among many, and unless there's a wide discrepancy in sensor size, it's bound to be one of the less important factors, sometimes approaching insignificance. There may be any number of reasons, or combination of reasons, why people would prefer the look created by the 645D to the D800E, but my guess, based on experience with hundreds of prints shown in critiques and galleries, is that it has considerably more to do with the glass used than with sensor size or MP count.

01-23-2014, 09:09 AM   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Full frame will never make a bad photo good.

Full frame will let you do more with a good photo. It's free. Not really any downside other than frame rate (and that could be likely be taken care of by binning), which is why some people are confused as to why Pentax hasn't released a FF camera.
A lot depends on shooting style. I come back to this a lot, but if I am shooting a DA 15 limited at f8 (low iso) on an APS-C, yes, I can get a similar photo with a full frame 22mm at f11, but the odds of me actually able to see a difference is unlikely -- certainly not between a D600 and a K3. The problem to me is that there aren't any full frame lenses that I have used that are as resistant to flare as the DA 15, meaning that even if I got a full frame camera, I don't know if an FA 31 limited would be a good stand in for it. Just flares too much.
01-23-2014, 09:19 AM   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't want to say anything snarky (I already did and feel kind of bad about that). There is a little impression that I get that what the world needs is larger sensored cameras to take better photos. But there is more to it than that -- including a good subject, good light, nice glass and some photographic skills (not necessarily in that order).
True, but if the Japanese camera companies decide collectively that "what the world needs is larger sensored cameras to take better photos", because they see more profit in that, then those cameras are what we'll all be getting, like it or no. To an extent, we are all prisoners in this regard: we can only use the cameras which exist, not those we might like to exist. But you are right: the camera companies can do everything except provide by far the most important ingredients: "a good subject, good light ... and some photographic skills."

There's something to be said for swapping things around occasionally, perhaps boiling things down to just a couple of essential lenses and a new body for a year of doing things differently, say. Keeps one on one's toes, etc.
01-23-2014, 09:22 AM   #322
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the 15 can make aps-c's case

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
A lot depends on shooting style. I come back to this a lot, but if I am shooting a DA 15 limited at f8 (low iso) on an APS-C, yes, I can get a similar photo with a full frame 22mm at f11, but the odds of me actually able to see a difference is unlikely -- certainly not between a D600 and a K3. The problem to me is that there aren't any full frame lenses that I have used that are as resistant to flare as the DA 15, meaning that even if I got a full frame camera, I don't know if an FA 31 limited would be a good stand in for it. Just flares too much.
The 15 is a unique lens, and has earned it's spot in the noble pantheon of Pentax lenses. And yes, it combines small with sharp with excellent contrast and flare control that hardly any other lens can quite match. The Nikon 14-24 f/2.8 is perhaps better optically, but is a radically different lens (much bigger, heavier, more expensive.)

I think it's time for a visit from:


(the above sometimes makes an appearance in the Nikon fora when they need a reality check )
01-23-2014, 09:22 AM - 1 Like   #323
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
A lot depends on shooting style. I come back to this a lot, but if I am shooting a DA 15 limited at f8 (low iso) on an APS-C, yes, I can get a similar photo with a full frame 22mm at f11, but the odds of me actually able to see a difference is unlikely -- certainly not between a D600 and a K3. The problem to me is that there aren't any full frame lenses that I have used that are as resistant to flare as the DA 15, meaning that even if I got a full frame camera, I don't know if an FA 31 limited would be a good stand in for it. Just flares too much.
As many reasons as there are for buying FF, there are more reasons for not buying it. Reason has nothing to do with it. Nothing creates arguments faster than giving too much credence to your reasoning. Reason supports every camera you might ever want from Minox to 8x10 film.

Reasons for buying cameras include...

Absolute convenience
Absolute IQ
Absolute portability.
It fits in my pocket
It's water proof and shockproof if I drop it in a lake.
It takes better pictures than my point and shoot.
It has water and dust seals.
It has great low light performance.
My kids can use it and get good results.
It has fast enough AF to keep up with my kids.
I want to brag that my camera is better than the next guys.
I want my camera to reflect what I perceive to be my status in the world.

I could go on and on. But you get the idea. Those are all reasons for buying a camera. Not many support one particular format. And there's not one format that adequately addresses all of them. In fact if you add up all the reasons people buy cameras, there isn't a format that competes on even a fraction of the whole list.

You make the compromises that suit you. Local reasoning. Global reasoning has nothing to do with it. Your reasoning ( or mine) may not even be of interest to anyone else.Your reasons and everyone else's reason will be different. With the exception that most Pentax users have similar reasoning in that they have learned to live with the set of compromises Ricoh/Pentax has embraced. Some no longer happily, but the vast majority are comfortable here. It's only a vocal few that need to proselytize to everyone else about the virtues of one or the other.

It's just sad that some take offence to people saying why they love their Pentax, and have to jump in with "the grass is greener over there" on every possible occasion. The grass is greener over here, the grass is greener everywhere. No matter what you do there are trade-offs.


Last edited by normhead; 01-23-2014 at 09:29 AM.
01-23-2014, 09:29 AM   #324
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The 15 is a unique lens, and has earned it's spot in the noble pantheon of Pentax lenses. And yes, it combines small with sharp with excellent contrast and flare control that hardly any other lens can quite match. The Nikon 14-24 f/2.8 is perhaps better optically, but is a radically different lens (much bigger, heavier, more expensive.)

I think it's time for a visit from:


(the above sometimes makes an appearance in the Nikon fora when they need a reality check )
I agree.


01-23-2014, 11:13 AM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
A lot depends on shooting style. I come back to this a lot, but if I am shooting a DA 15 limited at f8 (low iso) on an APS-C, yes, I can get a similar photo with a full frame 22mm at f11, but the odds of me actually able to see a difference is unlikely -- certainly not between a D600 and a K3. The problem to me is that there aren't any full frame lenses that I have used that are as resistant to flare as the DA 15, meaning that even if I got a full frame camera, I don't know if an FA 31 limited would be a good stand in for it. Just flares too much.
Amen, that 15mm is a great lens in many ways. Unfortunately it has some downsides below F/5.6, too.

If Pentax put out a FF I assume a 24mm wouldn't be far behind. Unfortunately it will probably have circular blades. If I'm trying to do sun stars I'll probably just use the 15mm.
01-23-2014, 12:59 PM   #326
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
True, but if the Japanese camera companies decide collectively that "what the world needs is larger sensored cameras to take better photos", because they see more profit in that, then those cameras are what we'll all be getting, like it or no. To an extent, we are all prisoners in this regard: we can only use the cameras which exist, not those we might like to exist....

There's something to be said for swapping things around occasionally, perhaps boiling things down to just a couple of essential lenses and a new body for a year of doing things differently, say. Keeps one on one's toes, etc.
Entropy:

QuoteQuote:
What is entropy? The most way to explain it is to say that it describes the natural tendency of the universe to fall apart into disorder. A well known illustration is the messy room concept. You know that you need to constantly work at keeping your room clean and well arranged. However, you know that if you don’t keep up with the routine the room will gradually return to its messy state
No dictator or carefully crafted cartel of companies has it their way forever - it all breaks apart sooner or later.

Canikon didn't want smart phones to come and take over 40% of their business - but the phone makers did that anyway. Thats entropy in action - order becoming chaos, at least in the PS arena.

And Sony has decided they didn't get a large enough piece of the pie and has been trying many things to break up the existing ordered world of cameras, e.g. Nexes, better sensors, QX10s, fixed lens FF, etc.

Also, new generations of photographers like rebelling against older generation and their feet (purchasing patterns) can tend to go in other directions, e.g. phones, mirrorless, etc.

Chaos is underrated, thats for sure.

I liked your comment on swapping things around. One learns from different experiences - its the old chaos thing again.
01-23-2014, 01:06 PM   #327
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The only thing I regret about chaos theory in a market is that it may become economically impossible for a company to continue supplying a product with which I have become familiar and comfortable - say Kodachrome 64. Sometimes I don't want to change, dammit, regardless of what everyone else thinks is better.

And sometimes I just want to drop my jeans on the floor where I stand and crawl straight under the covers.
01-23-2014, 03:20 PM   #328
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Entropy you describe can also be called a state of mental confusion. Mental confusion because the movements and jitters appear to be random, as they are pointed towards various short term objectives. In the pursue of many short terms goals, there is also a desire to, possibly at some stage, discover a grander vision. But the grand vision being almost an impossible act because it must be set up before realistically.

We have to thank Japanese that we have cameras today, and that the majority of world’s patents in cameras and optics are held in Japan. I cannot even imagine US and Europe being homes to significant camera manufacturers, as the mindset would collapse the industry long ago. Japanese social structure and economy mindset was set from the day one into a direction of a more grand vision and cohesion, control of random movements and they are still the best in the world in that. There is also an inherent love for nature and enjoying sightseeing for the sake of admiration and discovery of one’s balance with nature. And the principles of good optics start there — in that long term grand goal — and nowhere else.

One short trip to Japan will show everyone why we still have some real cameras in our hands, and not only crappy iPhones. Thus when you look from that perspective, it is an insult to say that a smartphone has “a camera” and can record “a memory” or that "smartphones are invading photography market". Because that device was not designed for that purpose nor perfected for any such sentiment of finding one's balance with nature or enjoying its beauty in the first place.

If it were perfected and made uncompromised, it would have been a real camera, not a smartphone.

Last edited by Uluru; 01-23-2014 at 03:36 PM.
01-23-2014, 04:06 PM   #329
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Entropy:



No dictator or carefully crafted cartel of companies has it their way forever - it all breaks apart sooner or later.

Canikon didn't want smart phones to come and take over 40% of their business - but the phone makers did that anyway. Thats entropy in action - order becoming chaos, at least in the PS arena.

And Sony has decided they didn't get a large enough piece of the pie and has been trying many things to break up the existing ordered world of cameras, e.g. Nexes, better sensors, QX10s, fixed lens FF, etc.

Also, new generations of photographers like rebelling against older generation and their feet (purchasing patterns) can tend to go in other directions, e.g. phones, mirrorless, etc.

Chaos is underrated, thats for sure.

I liked your comment on swapping things around. One learns from different experiences - its the old chaos thing again.
Lol, Entropy, Schmentropy. It's no good waiting for a cartel to break up, I guess. By that time most of us will be experiencing the entropic rapture of being six feet under and helping the daisies grow. I don't know whether there's ever been a photography movement called "Chaos Now!" but perhaps it's time there was.

There's something to be said for shaking one's fist at the Facebook/Instagram mobile Silcon Valley hipster BS crowd and buying a proper traditional camera that's actually used for the art and craft of photography rather than for wifi'd selfies and lolcats. Something like a D800E and an 85mm f1.4G or a 645D and all the trimmings should show that lot what a proper modern camera is all about.

Last edited by mecrox; 01-23-2014 at 04:41 PM.
01-23-2014, 04:47 PM   #330
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
We have to thank Japanese that we have cameras today, and that the majority of world’s patents in cameras and optics are held in Japan. I cannot even imagine US and Europe being homes to significant camera manufacturers, as the mindset would collapse the industry long ago. Japanese social structure and economy mindset was set from the day one into a direction of a more grand vision and cohesion, control of random movements and they are still the best in the world in that. There is also an inherent love for nature and enjoying sightseeing for the sake of admiration and discovery of one’s balance with nature. And the principles of good optics start there — in that long term grand goal — and nowhere else.
wow...
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