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02-05-2014, 10:32 AM   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It's not that bad. Just if you get a D600, right? I would assume it is better on a D800/D4 (I haven't used any of them, so take that with a grain of salt).
I actually have a D600. I'm... "getting used to it". I can certainly take good pictures but would much prefer that Pentax make a FF and the Nikon 'only' be permanently attached to either a very wide angle or a very long lens, where Pentax doesn't have viable options.

One great thing about the 'UI' is that I no longer have to change lenses. A zoom on FF is good enough for me.

02-05-2014, 10:47 AM - 1 Like   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
This is a wrong calculation: given the at least one stop better noise handling of FF systems, one should choose the Nikon 80-400 f4.5-5.6 VR (the Pentax 60-250/4 is a 90-375/6 in FF terms) which is cheaper than the Pentax 60-250. Furthermore, the Nikon AF 24-85mm 2.8-4.0D on FF is more like the Pentax 16-50 on APS-C, and the Nikon is again about 1/4 cheaper than the Pentax. Also, to the Pentax 50-138/2.8 there is the Nikon AF-S VR 70-200mm 4.0G ED which is the same price. And: you can definitely not compare the Sigma UW-Zoom to Nikons, the image quality the latter delivers cannot be compared to the Sigma, its completely a different league.

When you take the Sigma 14-24/4.5-5.6 DGII instead of the Nikon, then here you pay 5039 € for the Nikon FF system and 4929 for the Pentax APS-C system...

And the Emporer is wearing new cloths. The spin never ends.


Constant ƒ-stop glass is always more expensive than variable ƒ stop glass. Comparing constant f-stop glass to variable ƒ stop glass is just ignorant. And don't even pretend like you didn't know that.

I've never said you can't spin a good argument, all the FF advocates can, but, not on an APS-c shooters terms. They all make their arguments based on "facts" that APS-c shooters have found to be personally irrelevant. From an APS-c shooter's perspective, FF has little to offer, for a lot more money.

Here are the test charts shot at base ISO, in "not in your mom's basement " conditions, over at Imaging Resources, comparing a D7100 to a D610 and a 6D.









They pretty much refute everything you just said, at least for some of us. SO while your assertions may be true for some, for others they are false and misleading.

By the way, the main difference between the FF and APS-c images in these examples, would be the FF images are not as sharp, due to narrower DoF. If you want everything in focus, the APS-c image is better.

Last edited by normhead; 02-05-2014 at 11:00 AM.
02-06-2014, 02:31 PM   #363
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"Fair & Balanced"

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Today's prices at Henry's

SIgma 8-16 APS-c $799 - Nikkor 14-24 $1,749, and the Sigma is wider...
Pentax 16-50 $1,199 Nikkor AFS 1,649
Pentax 50-135 $1,399 ƒ2.8 Nikkor 70-200 ƒ2.8 $ 2179
Pentax 60-250 $1,399 ƒ4 Nikkor AF-s 200-400 ƒ4 $6499

Pentax K-3 $1100 Nikon D610 $1999
But you're not even comparing equivalent lenses. The FF system you show above is much more capable, for one thing.

.


QuoteQuote:
Both systems produce about the same IQ in good light,
Really?

QuoteQuote:
with APS-c having more DoF, for people who value that,
Of course aps-c does not have "more DOF", once again you just muddle the situation. Why? I know you must really understand this by now.... don't you?

QuoteQuote:
and the FF system having less DoF for those who value that.
Wrong, of course.

QuoteQuote:
I don't think you can make the Nikon system better by buying cheaper glass.
Better? NO, but you can certainly buy much, much cheaper glass and still get better IQ across the aperture and ISO range than aps-c.

I know you're utterly consumed with cost, but if that's true, why try to build the most expensive FF kit possible and then compare it like-like for a lesser-capable aps-c system? If you're being fair and honest with yourself (meaning - if you're really in the market for an FF system) you don't do that.
.

Last edited by jsherman999; 02-06-2014 at 03:07 PM.
03-11-2014, 01:58 PM   #364
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FF is slowly on the move... as predicted

digitimes: share is expected to surpass 30%

"...Full-frame DSLR cameras' current share in overall digital camera sales has risen to 15% and the share is expected to surpass 30% by the end of 2014 with factors such as the release of new entry-level models driving demand, according to market observers."

One sloppiness problem with that quote, though - who exactly are the "market observers" being cited?

.

03-11-2014, 03:39 PM   #365
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Forum users carefully "observing" the market?
03-11-2014, 03:56 PM   #366
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I worked as a professional news photographer in the 80's and early 90's and shot Pentax LXs and Pentax glass. A profession change meant I could delay the move to digital until Pentax produced a quality digital body. Being able to use my existing glass was a huge bonus.

As I have gotten older I find that my eyesight has declined enough (presbyopia) to make focusing my old glass on the new digital bodies a challenge. It is time for me to move to AF glass, and I do not have the luxury of time.

The world is clearly moving back to the traditional 35mm film size for camera sensors. Slowly, yes, but moving. I thought Pentax would be one of the leaders in this movement with their announcement several years ago... now it is clear that they will be a follower. Or worse. Clearly the old Pentax... the one that produced some of the best gear ever... is dead.

I own a K-10, K-5 and K-3. All were cutting edge in their time (the K-3 still is). All produce beautiful images. All are built exceptionally well (the K-10 has more than half a million shutter actuations and still works like the day I purchased it). It makes no sense, however, for me to buy glass for APS-C sensor bodies that will, along with the sensor itself, be obsolete in ten years. I was hopeful, but no more.

I am currently test driving the Nikon D600 and D800 and plan to take a Canon EOS 5D Mk3 for a drive in the near future. And I will mourn the loss of a good friend when I send my last Pentax cameras and glass to their new homes.
03-11-2014, 04:12 PM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
FF is slowly on the move... as predicted

digitimes: share is expected to surpass 30%

"...Full-frame DSLR cameras' current share in overall digital camera sales has risen to 15% and the share is expected to surpass 30% by the end of 2014 with factors such as the release of new entry-level models driving demand, according to market observers."

One sloppiness problem with that quote, though - who exactly are the "market observers" being cited?

.
The fact that no specific "market observers" were cited and no links to actual data were reported, indicate that this is just BS information. For 2013, FF was only 9% or so of ILC sales. For overall digital camera sales, it would have been much less. Sounds like an ad agency was successful in getting bogus information into a blog.
03-11-2014, 04:50 PM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Thanks for sharing the link. Convincing/dramatic photographic series.

Monday evening, after the main presentation at our photo club, there was an announced exercise in using our cameras. 4 members who have dslrs, chose to participate in the exercise with their cell phones instead, leaving their dslrs at home. This is only one small data point, but one sees many more instances when even enthusiasts are buying and using smart phones for cameras - not solely perhaps -but the interest is there. The revolution is happening - now.
Single data point. My wife is the middle class American photo snapper so many people here scorn - but she actually takes ten times as many pictures as I do and they're not just Uncle Harry passed out on the couch after Thanksgiving dinner. She posts a lot of them to illustrate a literary blog now.

Her digital progression has been Optio A40 >> iPhone >> Q/02. She literally stole my Q for the zoom, settings and features. Once we set up the Eye-Fi Mobi for her phone (Instagram is a necessary part of communicating with globally-distributed children when you are our ages) she literally has no desire to use the phone cam for anything.

My older daughter (who is actually a very good, trained photographer) took the A40 because she likes the Pentax color profile. Then I sent her one of those Q deal kits and the same thing happened. She's actually buying Q lenses.

At first the phone is fun and cool and a new toy - but eventually that wears off. Then it's just a poor camera format that's a pain to use.

DK what this has to do with TOP and FF though.


Last edited by monochrome; 03-11-2014 at 04:55 PM.
03-12-2014, 12:11 AM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
FF is slowly on the move... as predicted

digitimes: share is expected to surpass 30%

"...Full-frame DSLR cameras' current share in overall digital camera sales has risen to 15% and the share is expected to surpass 30% by the end of 2014 with factors such as the release of new entry-level models driving demand, according to market observers."

One sloppiness problem with that quote, though - who exactly are the "market observers" being cited?

.
Well that it is growing I can believe. Partly because the whole market for dslr is shrinking and the upper market for full frame isn't. That it is already 15 % I can't believe. That it will be 30 % with X-mass is just a joke. Not this fast.
03-12-2014, 12:59 AM   #370
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D*mn... so we won't all suddenly get rich, in order to afford some nice FF kits?
03-12-2014, 03:53 AM   #371
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The whole writeup on Digitimes is a cat's swill.
03-12-2014, 07:54 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The whole writeup on Digitimes is a cat's swill.
Thats very good

We have a news channel in the US that will plant information in some blogs and then later on quote it on a TV channel as information being reported on the internet. Of course noone can ever trace a source, but the propaganda has by then already been launched on the public to help shape public opinion. This feels like the same sort of thing.
03-12-2014, 09:59 AM   #373
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QuoteQuote:
I just really hope that the eventual standard will be something as large as 1-inch.
To me, the funniest thing is his assumption that there will ever be an "eventual standard".
03-12-2014, 10:50 AM   #374
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"Standards are great; which standard do you want to use?"
03-13-2014, 09:16 AM   #375
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There is this saying: WATER WILL FIND ITS OWN LEVEL

Well, the great unwashed masses will vote with their money, and what camera equipment is out there in 5 years will be the result - no action on our part is necessary No standards are necessary of course.

Unless FF comes down markedly in its prices, i doubt that in 5 years it will be any more than its present minority status. Sony's new A6000 and its price-point amazes me. APS will be the interesting market sector in my opinion.
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