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01-11-2014, 04:10 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The 645D is probably still a better camera for landscape photography. If you want something that has top of line auto focus, wider array of lenses, then D800 will be better, but I am pretty impressed by the CCD sensor in the 645D, even compared with the D800.
I bet If you compare landscape images taken with the 645D and SMC Pentax-DA 645 25mm F4 AL [IF] SDM AW vs the D800E and Nikkor AF-S 14-24 mm f/2.8G ED it would not show that much difference to justify the huge price gap between the two IMHO. And the 14-24mm would give you an angle of view range from 84 deg to 114 deg compared to only a 95 deg angle of view for the 25mm F4 645 lens. Also the D800E had a landscape dynamic range of 14.3Evs vs 12.6Evs for the 645D in the DXoMark sensor scores.

01-11-2014, 04:12 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I bet If you compare landscape images taken with the 645D and SMC Pentax-DA 645 25mm F4 AL [IF] SDM AW vs the D800E and Nikkor AF-S 14-24 mm f/2.8G ED it would not show that much difference to justify the huge price gap between the two IMHO. And the 14-24mm would give you an angle of view range from 84 deg to 114 deg compared to only a 95 deg angle of view for the 25mm F4 645 lens.
I don't know how you could tell. People who shoot with 645D tend to be better photographers and so their images are better. I happen to like the look of CCDs versus CMOS, but whatever floats your boat. A D800 and 14-24 isn't exactly in my price range either.
01-11-2014, 04:14 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
All of this discussion about 4K screens really avoids the reality why most people's images aren't great. It has nothing to do with lack of megapixels and a lot more to do with lack of good glass and good technique with shooting. I don't expect 4K screens to be a big seller of full frame cameras at all.
I don't really either. Maybe a few image editing people or professional creative types, but not Joe Schmoe. I expect it'll be the other way around: over the next couple years, people get 4K screens for Reasons (TV, gaming, computer work, etc) and there'll be a gradual drive for higher resolution again.

It's really nice to be able to crop an image hard and come out with something usable, or straighten an image, or generally not be working with your back up against a wall. APS-C can't deliver that (Pentax K-7 is only 20% larger than 4K on the long edge), FF can, and FF format has the potential to keep resolution growing upward when 8K becomes A Thing (or whatever the next larger size ends up being). APS-C pixel density just can't go up that much farther. The highest-resolution APS-C bodies (D5200 IIRC) hit diffraction at f/5.6 or so and need insanely high-performing lenses to actually hit those resolution targets, FF has significantly increased resolution (D800: 90% longer than 4K on the long edge) and still has a bit of headroom in pixel density before it hits APS-C levels.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 01-11-2014 at 04:27 PM.
01-11-2014, 04:20 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't know how you could tell. People who shoot with 645D tend to be better photographers and so their images are better. I happen to like the look of CCDs versus CMOS, but whatever floats your boat. A D800 and 14-24 isn't exactly in my price range either.
The 645D with 25mm F4 costs many time more than the D800E with 14-24mm ED F2.8 but there are other 36mp FF options today that cost less than the D800E.

01-11-2014, 04:26 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
I don't really either. Maybe a few image editing people or professional creative types, but not Joe Schmoe. I expect it'll be the other way around: over the next couple years, people get 4K screens for Reasons (TV, gaming, computer work, etc) and there'll be a gradual drive for higher resolution again.

It's really nice to be able to resize downward to hide a slightly soft image, it's really nice to be able to crop an image hard and come out with something usable, etc. APS-C can't deliver that (Pentax K-7 is only 20% larger than 4K on the long edge), FF can, and FF format has the potential to keep resolution growing upward when 8K becomes A Thing (or whatever the next larger size ends up being). APS-C pixel density just can't go up that much farther. The highest-resolution APS-C bodies hit diffraction at f/5.6 or so and need insanely high-performing lenses to actually hit those resolution targets, FF has significantly increased resolution (D800: 90% longer than 4K on the long edge) and still has a bit of headroom in pixel density before it hits APS-C levels.
Sears sells a 55" 4K UHD TV for $799 and Amazon has a 65" 4K UHD TV for under $1,500 that is about what 1080p HDTVs were going for a year ago.
01-11-2014, 05:22 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The 645D with 25mm F4 costs many time more than the D800E with 14-24mm ED F2.8 but there are other 36mp FF options today that cost less than the D800E.
There are plenty of cheaper lens options than the 25mm. But, honestly, if I were a landscape photographer instead of a hobby photographer, I would want a 645D. You can preach reviews and cost at me, but I'm convinced it's top of line for that specific application.

What someone like Hark Lee does with it is amazing. But I don't have 5 thousand or 8 thousand dollars for either camera. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/48-pentax-645d-medium-format/139755-my-fi...ghts-645d.html
01-13-2014, 02:28 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There are plenty of cheaper lens options than the 25mm. But, honestly, if I were a landscape photographer instead of a hobby photographer, I would want a 645D. You can preach reviews and cost at me, but I'm convinced it's top of line for that specific application.
Aren't those the same? I mean, are there people actually making money from landscapes photography? Now that would be a dream-occupation.

You're absolutely correct though, if FF has an advantage over APS-C because of the larger sensor area, then it speaks for itself that an even larger sensor has that same advantage. Well not the same actually, because the step from FF to 645D in surface area is only half as big as the step from APS-C to FF.
01-13-2014, 06:29 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm convinced it's top of line for that specific application.

What's wrong with Phase One, etc?

01-13-2014, 06:41 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
What's wrong with Phase One, etc?
01-13-2014, 06:45 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
What's wrong with Phase One, etc?
Nothing wrong with it. It would probably be even better. I am just most familiar with the Pentax 645. All of these range in the pretty expensive to really, really expensive range. I do think the 645D is built with sealing and is more intended for outdoor photography, which is my thing. I imagine the next gen of 645D will be pretty impressive -- faster frame rate/processing and certainly higher resolution.
01-13-2014, 04:44 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote

Even if you don't want to shoot DSLR - if MILC is where you want to be - there's just not going to be enough separating m43 & aps-c from really good phone cameras, and people spending $1000+ on dedicated MILC cameras will be buying FF.

.
If the FF is the only circus in town, people will go and have a picnic instead.

FF very much means the end of traditional digital photography if we are forced into it, and yes, we are bing forced into it by Nikon and Canon. Because for 12 years they sell APS-C as their bread and butter, and now everyone thinks its not relevant anymore.They kill the real innovation across industry in order to sell something that needs no innovation at all and which they impose as "a solution".

One needs to clearly distinguish common sense in life form marketing nonsense of the 800lb gorilla.
01-13-2014, 06:18 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote

FF very much means the end of traditional digital photography if we are forced into it, and yes, we are bing forced into it by Nikon and Canon.
Traditional digital photpgraphy as defined how? You'll still be able to shoot smaller interchangeable-lens formats, they'll probably just be wrapped in mirrorless bodies more often than not. DSLR, the utmost performance will probably be FF, and the price tiers will end up being very similar to what you're paying now anyway for aps-c.

QuoteQuote:
Because for 12 years they sell APS-C as their bread and butter, and now everyone thinks its not relevant anymore.
aps-c DSLR was a compromise all along, and it's being edged out on the bottom by a more efficient compromise. That's all.

QuoteQuote:

They kill the real innovation across industry in order to sell something that needs no innovation at all and which they impose as "a solution".
Why would FF 'kill innovation'?

.
01-14-2014, 12:43 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Traditional digital photpgraphy as defined how? You'll still be able to shoot smaller interchangeable-lens formats, they'll probably just be wrapped in mirrorless bodies more often than not. DSLR, the utmost performance will probably be FF..
.
Performance in what exactly? I am not sure if there has ever been such a ludicrous race towards a certain technical format and disregarding everything else. How about car manufacturers suddenly say "Hi there folks, the future of cars facilitates motors of 5 litres only. And that is what we'll do from now on. Small cars? Sorry, we don't do them anymore."

It is not only stupid, but is highly irrational, and downright rude. Many people are disgusted by this preposterous FF race and I am certainly one of them. I am not disgusted by the format itself, but the implications of the uneducated that all of a sudden the FF is the measure of photography. It is not the way it is phrased it is solely a marketing message of the two companies who want to exterminate all innovation inside the photography business.

A DSLR design does not command any specific sensor size. It is the form tied to the operation of human eyes and hands, that may accept this or that sensor format be it APS-C, APS-H, FF or a MF, or whatever else.

Insisting on FF as "the solution" is irrational.

Last edited by Uluru; 01-14-2014 at 12:51 AM.
01-14-2014, 12:48 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
They kill the real innovation across industry in order to sell something that needs no innovation at all and which they impose as "a solution".
How does using a larger sensor format kill innovation? At the very least, the same engineering and developement problems will still be left to be resolved. I would think building the larger sensors into as small and useable camera bodies as possible would pose lots of possibility for innovation and new challenges. (Especially for Pentax, they could really shine in that area.) Secondly, FF is not a solution, and it's not supposed to be one, it's an extra option. Extra options are good for the consumer. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything.
01-14-2014, 01:02 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
How does using a larger sensor format kill innovation? At the very least, the same engineering and developement problems will still be left to be resolved. I would think building the larger sensors into as small and useable camera bodies as possible would pose lots of possibility for innovation ...
What exact benefit do such a product solve? Or is it a solution just waiting for a problem?
Are we come to the point in photography when we understand that we have gone far over the 99.9999% of our everyday needs, and are now theorising on the quantum level of light performance and ISO sensitivity that is suddenly a "climacteric factor" for the remaining 0.0001%?
I believe we are.
And it is not art of photography anymore. It is the end of it. It's theoretical physics and science wrapped inside the lassitude of existence, that finds its way into photography concerns by the same who didn't know what is the art of photography in the first place.
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