A new generation doing the math in reverse

**Erictator** · 01-24-2014, 02:19 PM - **3 Likes**

I just had a chuckle as my friends son looked all over the back of my Spotmatic trying to find the LCD screen. Then the questions started:

"Where is the screen?"
There isn't one. It's a film camera.
"How do you take a picture without the screen Mr?"
Through the viewfinder kid.
"How do you know what it's going to look like?"
You have to send out the film and wait for the prints.
"Oh my god, that's crazy!"

I got a chuckle out of that. Then while looking at this FF forum, another thought occurred... there is a whole generation of Pentax photographers who have never shot anything except APS-C!

So what you say? Well, remember when you got your Ist-D and always had to do the mental calc for the 1.5x crop factor? Drove us nuts on the wide end, but we all were pretty tickled on the long end, as our tele's got a nice bump in FOV.

What I'm leading up to, is that if Ricoh Pentax released a FF tomorrow, just imagine all the whining from the people who never shot film or FF, going on and on about how their tele's are too short, and how they will have to "THINK ABOUT FOCAL LENGTH IN APS-C TERMS!" Ahahahahahah!

I can see the advertisements already:

90mm macro (60mm APS-C equiv field of view)

LOL!

Hope I'm not the only one who finds the humor in this. I know, it's prolly not going to go down that way and it's pretty esoteric, but for some reason it hits my funny bone.

hks_kansei · 01-24-2014, 02:35 PM

I've had to explain how film works to people as well.

one friend (who it turns out has only ever shot digital) asked me how a film camera works.

I told him it was the same as digital except instead of a sensor the film is there.

Then he asked how the film gets the image on it... I then had to explain that it was coated in light sensitive chemicals etc.
Then he asked about how that works, I said it then is put into more chemicals to convert the light sensitive ones into colours.
I then went on to explain darkrooms, enlargers, photographic paper, etc.

I just find it odd that film is often seen as a mysterious and extremely complex thing to comprehend, where a sensor and all that electrical stuff is simple...

Film: Light hits chemicals, chemicals react, more chemicals used to convert the emulsion into image.
Digital: light hits sensor, sensor converts light to electricity, processors used to convert electricity into image.

k5astro · 01-24-2014, 02:35 PM

lol! Yeah my son was wondering how to turn on live-view on my K20. I had to explain that "real" photographers use the viewfinder :-P Both boys quickly warmed up to using the viewfinder even though they were brought up on cell phones and point and shoot with LCD. Thankfully there was no argument like the one about men not truly landing on the moon! Kids!

tabl10s · 01-24-2014, 04:06 PM - **1 Like**

I was amazed when I first joined at all the people here who had never focused manually. I wonder if the same group know how to use a stick-shift or cook without a microwave?

mikeSF · 01-24-2014, 04:16 PM

I was just telling my kids how in the "old days" you couldn't just walk around the house while talking on the phone. it was connected to the wall. They could not comprehend that.
And then there was the time my kids found my box of LP records. They had never seen anything like them and referred to them as "dad's big CDs".

ok, i'll admit, I've never shot with film. my only reference point for focal lengths has always been APSC. that is, until I switched to this 645D and discovered among other things that 75mm is not short tele(as on APSC), but a wide angle (similar to 40mm on APSC). arrgh.

But don't group me with the auto focusers, I am a strict M-mode, manual focus, aperture ring guy.

ElJamoquio · 01-24-2014, 06:04 PM

A friends' three year old loves cameras. She came over and wanted to use my camera. I held it for her and she's looking at the (dead) screen...

Good times, turned on LV.

ElJamoquio · 01-24-2014, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by mikeSF

I was just telling my kids how in the "old days" you couldn't just walk around the house while talking on the phone. it was connected to the wall. They could not comprehend that.
And then there was the time my kids found my box of LP records. They had never seen anything like them and referred to them as "dad's big CDs".

ok, i'll admit, I've never shot with film. my only reference point for focal lengths has always been APSC. that is, until I switched to this 645D and discovered among other things that 75mm is not short tele(as on APSC), but a wide angle (similar to 40mm on APSC). arrgh.

But don't group me with the auto focusers, I am a strict M-mode, manual focus, aperture ring guy.

How old are you?

I definitely shot with film but never anything 'good'; you must've done the same if you're old enough to own LP's! I needed digital, I didn't really "learn" on film because it was too expensive of a learning curve.

mikeSF · 01-24-2014, 06:51 PM

by "film", I mean 35mm camera. when I was a kid I used my parents polaroid and Kodak disc, but that's it.

tuco · 01-24-2014, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by mikeSF

... until I switched to this 645D and discovered among other things that 75mm is not short tele(as on APSC), but a wide angle (similar to 40mm on APSC). arrgh.

75mm is a normal lens on a FF 6x4.5 format. The 645D has a crop factor to the 645 format. So its a short telephoto on the 645D, no?

mikeSF · 01-24-2014, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by tuco

75mm is a normal lens on FF 6x4.5 format. The 645D has a crop factor to the 645 format. So its a short telephoto on the 645D, no?

no, I think you went backwards.
75mm is short tele on APSC, 75 is like a 40mm (APSC) on the 645D. I consider anything less than 50mm(APSC) to be wide angle.

tuco · 01-24-2014, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by mikeSF

no, I think you went backwards.
75mm is short tele on APSC, 75 is like a 40mm (APSC) on the 645D. I consider anything less than 50mm(APSC) to be wide angle.

I think you have it backwards. Shooting the 645D compared to a 645 film camera is like shooting a APS-C digital compared to a 35mm film camera but with a different crop factor. 75mm is the normal lens on a Pentax 645 film camera. The 645D sensor is smaller than that.

formercanuck · 01-24-2014, 07:36 PM

Having people go to metering, manual aperture and film would be similar to having people today go from Windows 7 / 8 (yuck) and give them a Unix console.

Manual film and Unix (even RedHat/Ubuntu) are a lot less forgiving - and you have to know a bit of what you're doing.

**arnold** · 01-24-2014, 07:46 PM

With all this lack of film experience it is no wonder I see so few contributions to the "Show your pictures from before 1990" thread.

normhead · 01-24-2014, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by formercanuck

Having people go to metering, manual aperture and film would be similar to having people today go from Windows 7 / 8 (yuck) and give them a Unix console.

Manual film and Unix (even RedHat/Ubuntu) are a lot less forgiving - and you have to know a bit of what you're doing.

I once had a Unix compter dumped in my lap and was then told to maintain it, for a retiring teacher who had no intention of ever putting it to good use. My experience at the time was with an Atari 400 computer, you're bringing back nightmares.

And honestly, I never figured out the crop factor thing until I read about it. The lens I used on my last film camera was a Tamron 35-300 Adaptal, and it wasn't auto-focus. I bought a Sigma 70-300 and the kit lens when I bought my *ist, and I never learned anything about the crop factor. I took pictures with each lens, figured out what it could do. Which is what I do with every lens and camera I acquire. If you have to think about which lens you need for an image by doing math, you're too slow. That stuff has to be muscle memory.

You should know what lens to reach for, by remembering what you've done with the lens in the past, and recognizing appropriate situations. There's way more goes into it than crop factor, no matter what formats you use.

tuco · 01-24-2014, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by mikeSF

no, I think you went backwards.
75mm is short tele on APSC, 75 is like a 40mm (APSC) on the 645D. I consider anything less than 50mm(APSC) to be wide angle.

Perhaps if you just look at the sensor size of the 645D vs the film size of the 645 format it may become clear. And is not that the same (but different numbers) as APS-C vs FF when it comes to lenses?

Pentax 645D = 44mm x 33mm area
Pentax 645 film = 56 mm × 41.5 mm area

Note, actual film size projects did not match their format designations exactly ( eg 60mm x 45mm for the 6 x 4.5 centimeter format - aka 645) and varies a small bit from one manufacture to the next. Same with the 6x7 format. Actual film size projection would be slightly less than 60mm x 70mm

01-24-2014, 02:19 PM - 3 Likes	#1
Erictator Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,345	A new generation doing the math in reverse I just had a chuckle as my friends son looked all over the back of my Spotmatic trying to find the LCD screen. Then the questions started: "Where is the screen?" There isn't one. It's a film camera. "How do you take a picture without the screen Mr?" Through the viewfinder kid. "How do you know what it's going to look like?" You have to send out the film and wait for the prints. "Oh my god, that's crazy!" I got a chuckle out of that. Then while looking at this FF forum, another thought occurred... there is a whole generation of Pentax photographers who have never shot anything except APS-C! So what you say? Well, remember when you got your Ist-D and always had to do the mental calc for the 1.5x crop factor? Drove us nuts on the wide end, but we all were pretty tickled on the long end, as our tele's got a nice bump in FOV. What I'm leading up to, is that if Ricoh Pentax released a FF tomorrow, just imagine all the whining from the people who never shot film or FF, going on and on about how their tele's are too short, and how they will have to "THINK ABOUT FOCAL LENGTH IN APS-C TERMS!" Ahahahahahah! I can see the advertisements already: 90mm macro (60mm APS-C equiv field of view) LOL! Hope I'm not the only one who finds the humor in this. I know, it's prolly not going to go down that way and it's pretty esoteric, but for some reason it hits my funny bone.

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01-24-2014, 02:35 PM	#2
hks_kansei Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 834	I've had to explain how film works to people as well. one friend (who it turns out has only ever shot digital) asked me how a film camera works. I told him it was the same as digital except instead of a sensor the film is there. Then he asked how the film gets the image on it... I then had to explain that it was coated in light sensitive chemicals etc. Then he asked about how that works, I said it then is put into more chemicals to convert the light sensitive ones into colours. I then went on to explain darkrooms, enlargers, photographic paper, etc. I just find it odd that film is often seen as a mysterious and extremely complex thing to comprehend, where a sensor and all that electrical stuff is simple... Film: Light hits chemicals, chemicals react, more chemicals used to convert the emulsion into image. Digital: light hits sensor, sensor converts light to electricity, processors used to convert electricity into image.

01-24-2014, 02:35 PM	#3
k5astro Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Photos: Albums Posts: 387	lol! Yeah my son was wondering how to turn on live-view on my K20. I had to explain that "real" photographers use the viewfinder :-P Both boys quickly warmed up to using the viewfinder even though they were brought up on cell phones and point and shoot with LCD. Thankfully there was no argument like the one about men not truly landing on the moon! Kids!

01-24-2014, 04:06 PM - 1 Like	#4
tabl10s Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Sacramento(formerly from B'Ham, England). Posts: 1,424	I was amazed when I first joined at all the people here who had never focused manually. I wonder if the same group know how to use a stick-shift or cook without a microwave?

01-24-2014, 04:16 PM	#5
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,620	I was just telling my kids how in the "old days" you couldn't just walk around the house while talking on the phone. it was connected to the wall. They could not comprehend that. And then there was the time my kids found my box of LP records. They had never seen anything like them and referred to them as "dad's big CDs". ok, i'll admit, I've never shot with film. my only reference point for focal lengths has always been APSC. that is, until I switched to this 645D and discovered among other things that 75mm is not short tele(as on APSC), but a wide angle (similar to 40mm on APSC). arrgh. But don't group me with the auto focusers, I am a strict M-mode, manual focus, aperture ring guy.

01-24-2014, 06:04 PM	#6
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	A friends' three year old loves cameras. She came over and wanted to use my camera. I held it for her and she's looking at the (dead) screen... Good times, turned on LV.

01-24-2014, 06:05 PM	#7
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by mikeSF I was just telling my kids how in the "old days" you couldn't just walk around the house while talking on the phone. it was connected to the wall. They could not comprehend that. And then there was the time my kids found my box of LP records. They had never seen anything like them and referred to them as "dad's big CDs". ok, i'll admit, I've never shot with film. my only reference point for focal lengths has always been APSC. that is, until I switched to this 645D and discovered among other things that 75mm is not short tele(as on APSC), but a wide angle (similar to 40mm on APSC). arrgh. But don't group me with the auto focusers, I am a strict M-mode, manual focus, aperture ring guy. How old are you? I definitely shot with film but never anything 'good'; you must've done the same if you're old enough to own LP's! I needed digital, I didn't really "learn" on film because it was too expensive of a learning curve.

01-24-2014, 06:51 PM	#8
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,620	by "film", I mean 35mm camera. when I was a kid I used my parents polaroid and Kodak disc, but that's it.

01-24-2014, 06:54 PM	#9
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by mikeSF ... until I switched to this 645D and discovered among other things that 75mm is not short tele(as on APSC), but a wide angle (similar to 40mm on APSC). arrgh. 75mm is a normal lens on a FF 6x4.5 format. The 645D has a crop factor to the 645 format. So its a short telephoto on the 645D, no?

01-24-2014, 06:56 PM	#10
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,620	Originally posted by tuco 75mm is a normal lens on FF 6x4.5 format. The 645D has a crop factor to the 645 format. So its a short telephoto on the 645D, no? no, I think you went backwards. 75mm is short tele on APSC, 75 is like a 40mm (APSC) on the 645D. I consider anything less than 50mm(APSC) to be wide angle.

01-24-2014, 07:06 PM	#11
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by mikeSF no, I think you went backwards. 75mm is short tele on APSC, 75 is like a 40mm (APSC) on the 645D. I consider anything less than 50mm(APSC) to be wide angle. I think you have it backwards. Shooting the 645D compared to a 645 film camera is like shooting a APS-C digital compared to a 35mm film camera but with a different crop factor. 75mm is the normal lens on a Pentax 645 film camera. The 645D sensor is smaller than that.

01-24-2014, 07:36 PM	#12
formercanuck Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: SoCal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 518	Having people go to metering, manual aperture and film would be similar to having people today go from Windows 7 / 8 (yuck) and give them a Unix console. Manual film and Unix (even RedHat/Ubuntu) are a lot less forgiving - and you have to know a bit of what you're doing.

01-24-2014, 07:46 PM	#13
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,294	With all this lack of film experience it is no wonder I see so few contributions to the "Show your pictures from before 1990" thread.

01-24-2014, 07:50 PM	#14
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by formercanuck Having people go to metering, manual aperture and film would be similar to having people today go from Windows 7 / 8 (yuck) and give them a Unix console. Manual film and Unix (even RedHat/Ubuntu) are a lot less forgiving - and you have to know a bit of what you're doing. I once had a Unix compter dumped in my lap and was then told to maintain it, for a retiring teacher who had no intention of ever putting it to good use. My experience at the time was with an Atari 400 computer, you're bringing back nightmares. And honestly, I never figured out the crop factor thing until I read about it. The lens I used on my last film camera was a Tamron 35-300 Adaptal, and it wasn't auto-focus. I bought a Sigma 70-300 and the kit lens when I bought my *ist, and I never learned anything about the crop factor. I took pictures with each lens, figured out what it could do. Which is what I do with every lens and camera I acquire. If you have to think about which lens you need for an image by doing math, you're too slow. That stuff has to be muscle memory. You should know what lens to reach for, by remembering what you've done with the lens in the past, and recognizing appropriate situations. There's way more goes into it than crop factor, no matter what formats you use.

01-24-2014, 07:52 PM	#15
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by mikeSF no, I think you went backwards. 75mm is short tele on APSC, 75 is like a 40mm (APSC) on the 645D. I consider anything less than 50mm(APSC) to be wide angle. Perhaps if you just look at the sensor size of the 645D vs the film size of the 645 format it may become clear. And is not that the same (but different numbers) as APS-C vs FF when it comes to lenses? Pentax 645D = 44mm x 33mm area Pentax 645 film = 56 mm × 41.5 mm area Note, actual film size projects did not match their format designations exactly ( eg 60mm x 45mm for the 6 x 4.5 centimeter format - aka 645) and varies a small bit from one manufacture to the next. Same with the 6x7 format. Actual film size projection would be slightly less than 60mm x 70mm