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01-25-2014, 06:59 AM   #1
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Aps-h

Well there is this wonderfull oppertunity to bring up the subject to a camera with K-mount and an APS-H sized sensor. Since you probably all know that I'm in favor for such a camera, it shouldn't surprise you that I bring new "material".

It has also been discussed in my meeting with two people from Pentax last week:

ricoh-imaging-europe-s-s-report-meeting

So the thing I brought up there was the question of who (outside of Pentax) would buy that wonderfull Full Frame camera offering from Pentax when it would sport the same 24 megapixel sensor that is also in the Nikon and Sony camera's? True it would still serve demand from current owners off the Pentax K-mount system who maybe have some or a lot off lenses that are ready to use on that Full Frame sensor. I'm actually one off them since I have a nice range off lenses that are made for Full Frame: FA31mm, DA*55mm, FA*85mm, DA*300mm and Sigma 70-200mm.

There are some nice advantages for a sensor sized APS-H. So it will be better delivering on Image Quality then APS-C (and that's maybe the main target). Probably more current lenses from Pentax can perform well on this sensor while not working to the max on Full Frame (I know there stiil have to be made new lenses for the wide-angle). It is an unique offering from Pentax and thus may attrack customers from outside the current K-mount system. It will give an advantage to photographers who want to do telework with long lenses like in sports- or wildlifephotography (in the end a system is more then just the camera) because off the little crop still offered over a Full Frame system.

So one off the things Always mentioned is that there is no sensor made for this purpose. That it is to expensive to make it on special order for Pentax. But now we do have a new sensor in CMOS for camera's like Hasselblad and Phase One (and who knows maybe in the future for Pentax 645D). It's a 44x33mm sized sensor with 50 megapixel with pixels sized 5,314 micron (or about that size). If Sony can cut larger sensors from that wafer then I guess that they can make it with a new APS-H sized format.

So why not use that same wafer to cut off a new Full Frame sensor? Well offcourse that is also an option. That would give Pentax a sensor with around 30,6 megapixel and that would give an excellent new sensor I think. A sensor that I even would prefer over using the same 24 megapixel sensor that is used by the competition. One other problem coming in is that such a sensor the pixelamount is getting so hi that files are getting more and more huge. Not everyone is waiting for enourmous files for every picture you take. Especialy not when you want to take a lot off images with Hi-framerate continuous shooting like in sports and wildlife.

Our friend Kai actually talks about that in his view on the 16 megapixel sensor in de D4 and Df:

So a >20 megapixel APS-H sized sensor inside a K-3 styled (or that body when possible) that has the electronics from the K-3 (metering, AF, fast framerate etc.) and can use the same grip as the K-3, the D-BG5 can make an excellent camera that serves a lot off options. Bring better IQ to the K-mount system while attracting new users to the K-mount by offering a new top off the line camera that fills in a position not catered by others.

For sports there is still a need for a fast long lens. So that could be filled with the coming off the Sigma 120-300mm/f2.8 lens in K-mount or a new and fast long lens in the range 300-500mm that has a fast aperture to go with that for modern sportsphotography (f2.8-f4).

The cropfactor for such a camera would be around 1,22 and thus giving just over 20 megapixel.

Any thoughts on this? Anyone thinking that the sensor that will be in future MF camera's wouldn't be good enough for such a camera? Or anything else?

01-25-2014, 07:12 AM   #2
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Pentax will never come out with an APS-H camera. Why would anyone want a 1.3x or 1.22x crop on their full frame lenses and pay more money to get it over a full frame camera ? Can you imagine Ricoh trying to sell a 1.3x or 1.22x crop DSLR for more money than a full frame DSLR ?
01-25-2014, 07:35 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Pentax will never come out with an APS-H camera. Why would anyone want a 1.3x or 1.22x crop on their full frame lenses and pay more money to get it over a full frame camera ? Can you imagine Ricoh trying to sell a 1.3x or 1.22x crop DSLR for more money than a full frame DSLR ?
I would expect it to be cheaper than an FF camera. I guess the difference would be,same size as a K-3, closing the equivalence factor to about a half stop, which is shrinking it to the point of being negligible, yet still giving the telephoto shooter a small advantage over FF. From Pentax's perspective going to APS-h might be the next best thing to FF. How much difference would there be between a 24 Mp APS-h and a 24mp FF? But then how much difference would there be between an APS-c and APS-h? The market being such as it is, it might sell. It just wouldn't stop the whining from those who have to have FF.
01-25-2014, 07:48 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Pentax will never come out with an APS-H camera. Why would anyone want a 1.3x or 1.22x crop on their full frame lenses and pay more money to get it over a full frame camera ? Can you imagine Ricoh trying to sell a 1.3x or 1.22x crop DSLR for more money than a full frame DSLR ?

Well there is no way Ricoh can sell a 24 megapixel Full Frame camera as cheap as the Nikon D610 is currently, simply because they lack the cheer number off sales. So offering the same as the competition won't make many people happy. The question how to market it is thus not in a way off price per megapixel, but performance to the sensor as a whole system.

01-25-2014, 08:00 AM   #5
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Maybe they can pilot it in a body similar to K-01 If it performs well, then stick it into a more expensive body like the K-3
01-25-2014, 08:27 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
Maybe they can pilot it in a body similar to K-01 If it performs well, then stick it into a more expensive body like the K-3
Now that would be awesome... or how about a body like an A7?
01-25-2014, 08:40 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
If Sony can cut larger sensors from that wafer then I guess that they can make it with a new APS-H sized format.
What??? You do know that you can't just cut wafers to size, don't you???
01-25-2014, 08:57 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I would expect it to be cheaper than an FF camera. I guess the difference would be,same size as a K-3, closing the equivalence factor to about a half stop, which is shrinking it to the point of being negligible, yet still giving the telephoto shooter a small advantage over FF. From Pentax's perspective going to APS-h might be the next best thing to FF. How much difference would there be between a 24 Mp APS-h and a 24mp FF? But then how much difference would there be between an APS-c and APS-h? The market being such as it is, it might sell. It just wouldn't stop the whining from those who have to have FF.
Norms right, it's 35mm or bust.

01-25-2014, 08:59 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by gbeaton Quote
What??? You do know that you can't just cut wafers to size, don't you???
So then, since you seem to know about these things, what would it cost to custom cut a wafer for a specific camera? Would it be feasible for 50,000 units? At what point in terms of overall sales would cutting a custom wafer size would be feasible?
01-25-2014, 09:20 AM   #10
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Larger volume means lower cost and full frame sensor volume is huge compared to low volume APS-H sensors. Were exactly is the demand for APS-H today ?
01-25-2014, 09:22 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I would expect it to be cheaper than an FF camera. I guess the difference would be,same size as a K-3, closing the equivalence factor to about a half stop, which is shrinking it to the point of being negligible, yet still giving the telephoto shooter a small advantage over FF. From Pentax's perspective going to APS-h might be the next best thing to FF. How much difference would there be between a 24 Mp APS-h and a 24mp FF? But then how much difference would there be between an APS-c and APS-h? The market being such as it is, it might sell. It just wouldn't stop the whining from those who have to have FF.
I like that idea... anything but following the footsteps of Canikon would be a welcome sign and I probably would be interested in getting one.
01-25-2014, 09:22 AM   #12
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Such a fine example of argumentum ad nauseam; sorry, Ron, you might repeat it as much as you wish but it won't start being a good idea. The disadvantages remain - that it will compete with "full frame" instead of being seen as a "better APS-C"; that the sensor must be custom made and thus expensive (and what a fine example you gave, the 25.000 euro PhaseOne).
And who (besides yourself) would rather have an APS-H camera instead of a "full frame" one? The solution to the imaginary problem of using the same sensor as the competition is to use an inferior one? Really?
01-25-2014, 09:25 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Larger volume means lower cost and full frame sensor volume is huge compared to low volume APS-H sensors. Were exactly is the demand for APS-H today ?
Well there might be me and Ron...
01-25-2014, 09:25 AM   #14
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Better a A7 body with a Hasselblad Lunar grip, and an micro 4/3 sensor, on a Sigma 200-500mm 2.8
01-25-2014, 09:28 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
I like that idea... anything but following the footsteps of Canikon would be a welcome sign and I probably would be interested in getting one.
You may like it but Ricoh is not interested in making a camera were only three people on the planet are interested in getting.
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