[rawr]

except Ricoh has been making cameras since the 50s

Indeed. And Canon probably earns more revenue selling office technology like copiers, printers, toner and scanners than from selling cameras. Just like Ricoh does.

[Mazhe]

[...] I'm confused now... so if I can focus my f/1.7 and f/2 lenses repeatedly with my stock K20D, I'm just being unusually lucky?

You also have superhuman strength to be able to lift such weight while it seems the rest of the internets must use two hands to handle a smartphone.

[Jean Poitiers]

Indeed. And Canon probably earns more revenue selling office technology like copiers, printers, toner and scanners than from selling cameras. Just like Ricoh does.

Have you ever priced a big office copier system lately ... mega-bucks very quickly. Plus add in the service and supply contracts ...

Our public establishment switched contractors to Canon copiers (lots of them, the entire fleet for several office buildings in different school locations/cities, too) and they (the small hallway "open use" ones) stink IMHO ... too much downtime; more than the previous ones. Cannot say for the big copiers that are about the size of a sedan. That's centralized printing services headache.

DLSR's are "chump change" in comparison IMHO ... As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money" plus "money talks and BS walks" rule quite applicable, too ... I have seen some of the budget figures; we go through a lot of paper!

[RonHendriks1966]

Have you ever priced a big office copier system lately ... mega-bucks very quickly. Plus add in the service and supply contracts ...

Our public establishment switched contractors to Canon copiers (lots of them, the entire fleet for several office buildings in different school locations/cities, too) and they (the small hallway "open use" ones) stink IMHO ... too much downtime; more than the previous ones. Cannot say for the big copiers that are about the size of a sedan. That's centralized printing services headache.

DLSR's are "chump change" in comparison IMHO ... As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money" plus "money talks and BS walks" rule quite applicable, too ... I have seen some of the budget figures; we go through a lot of paper!

The problem is that it is difficult to make money of a camera bussiness. Maybe offering a cloud space to it that could make money, but even that is for free these days.

[aurele]

I'm confused now... so if I can focus my f/1.7 and f/2 lenses repeatedly with my stock K20D, I'm just being unusually lucky?

No, probably just experienced It's just that's it's way easier with split screen or microprism compared to the stock screen. Well, in my view.

To me, the real difference appear when the f2/1.7/1.4 aperture is really needed to get a decent speed. At that moment, the stock screen is a tad annoying to get sharp shots.

[Daikokuya]

Given the D810 which looks like unbeatable in the near future even with the updated 5Dmk3, there should be no room for Pentax's FF to expand market share. The new 645Z could lose some ground in the advent of the D810, though Pentax insists the former is superior to 35mm FF in term of IQ, which might not be noticeable even in the professionals' eyes if not enlarged enough. Pentax's FF would be suicidal.

[mee]

Given the D810 which looks like unbeatable in the near future even with the updated 5Dmk3, there should be no room for Pentax's FF to expand market share. The new 645Z could lose some ground in the advent of the D810, though Pentax insists the former is superior to 35mm FF in term of IQ, which might not be noticeable even in the professionals' eyes if not enlarged enough. Pentax's FF would be suicidal.

They don't have to 'beat' any one product.. it isn't a race to have the best camera on the market hands down where everyone must leave the market.. there is room for more than one SLR with a FF sensor. Canon 6D, 5dII, and assorted sold well despite the Nikon D800/E, D610, and D4 out on the market.

Pentax's niche is smallish, rugged, weather sealed bodies that squeeze the most out of whatever hardware they have and (relatively) compact primes. I mean it was arguable the K-5 was not the 'best' APS-C body on the market when competing with Nikon and Canon products.. yet they released it.. yet it sold (seemingly) well. I still see demand for them.

It isn't a panic moment. And I would be gobsmacked if Ricoh/Pentax doesn't have a general idea of what Nikon releases before Nikon releases it and doesn't have a feel for the market at any given time.

If you see a Pentax digital FF body this year, I'm sure it will still sell.. despite what Nikon or anyone else releases this year (short of a brain to digital sensor convertor).

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a D610-like body with better low light focusing and sealing more than a D810-like body... if we see a Pentax FF body at all.

[Daikokuya]

They don't have to 'beat' any one product.. it isn't a race to have the best camera on the market hands down where everyone must leave the market.. there is room for more than one SLR with a FF sensor. Canon 6D, 5dII, and assorted sold well despite the Nikon D800/E, D610, and D4 out on the market.

Pentax's niche is smallish, rugged, weather sealed bodies that squeeze the most out of whatever hardware they have and (relatively) compact primes. I mean it was arguable the K-5 was not the 'best' APS-C body on the market when competing with Nikon and Canon products.. yet they released it.. yet it sold (seemingly) well. I still see demand for them.

It isn't a panic moment. And I would be gobsmacked if Ricoh/Pentax doesn't have a general idea of what Nikon releases before Nikon releases it and doesn't have a feel for the market at any given time.

If you see a Pentax digital FF body this year, I'm sure it will still sell.. despite what Nikon or anyone else releases this year (short of a brain to digital sensor convertor).

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a D610-like body with better low light focusing and sealing more than a D810-like body... if we see a Pentax FF body at all.

You're talking about a different story. The K-5 is an update of the K-7, and the 645Z is an update of the 645D. Both have precedents and customers who are supposed to buy as an update, but Pentax's FF doesn't have any precedents. Pentax has to find customers to buy FF from the ground up along with heavy and expensive lenses, which Canikon excels far better.

Nikon, one of the two major camera companies, is now going to the medical business, knowing that it's hard to expand shares in the camera market under the current environment. Given that, could Pentax, whose market share looks like less than 5%, start a brand new model and be profitable enough to cover the cost? How can you explain it to shareholders who already know that Pentax is bleeding? I don't think it's a sustainable business.

[mee]

You're talking about a different story. The K-5 is an update of the K-7, and the 645Z is an update of the 645D. Both have precedents and customers who are supposed to buy as an update, but Pentax's FF doesn't have any precedents. Pentax has to find customers to buy FF from the ground up along with heavy and expensive lenses, which Canikon excels far better.

Nikon, one of the two major camera companies, is now going to the medical business, knowing that it's hard to expand shares in the camera market under the current environment. Given that, could Pentax, whose market share looks like less than 5%, start a brand new model and be profitable enough to cover the cost? How can you explain it to shareholders who already know that Pentax is bleeding? I don't think it's a sustainable business.

Theres a ton of K mount FF lenses for any Pentax FF that comes to market... due to Pentax's legacy of FF cameras. Even the modern and cheapo DA 35 and 50 lenses fill on a FF sensor (as tested by others on Pentax FF analog cameras). Yes, they need more modern lenses, but they aren't starting from square one.

Besides, they aren't reinventing the wheel. They have the experience gained from the K-3 and 645Z to springboard a FF to market if they want to go that route. I mean the company already has the mount, lens archetype, electronics, and body from the K-3, 645Z, and their previous history.

Again, you're not going to see a 3+ thousand dollar monster FF. You'll see a sharp midtier because sharp midtier is more accessible (financially) to many more people yet powerful enough to be desired. I agree, if they went the D810 route and priced it like a D810, they'd have their hands full. But I don't see that happening. If we saw a Pentax digi FF soon, I'd think we'd see it in the 1800-2200 price range with matching (for the price) features..

How do you know Pentax is bleeding? What exactly does that mean? The K-3 has been very popular and the 645Z seems to be as well. And we're actually getting SOME lenses from Sigma in K mount now. Seems like they are doing pretty well.

[Uluru]

Well, you can ask how much Theta development of the entire new department, product and services and marketing cost and what's the return from it? Does it make money?

In the exactly the same way Ricoh Imaging can start doing FF for Pentax, where they have some ground base for a better start anyway. I'd leave "it is not economical" speculations aside. We have no idea whether is it economical, or is it one of those more complex strategies that do make sense in the long run for the cmpany. For users like us, they may never make sense — from the point of view of our limited data.

The fact remains is that everybody is expecting Pentax to do it, and sometimes it is more worthwhile answering to market just to prove you are listening, than not answer and suffer in other departments because people have presupposed you are uncommunicative, stubborn and dysfunctional.

[briancornerbrook]

I voted yes. There are two reasons (three really) I think it will happen:

First; The mysterious "* tele zoom" 70-200 lens on the road map. On last years road map the projected * lens was clearly identified as a "DA* Zoom". This year, the DA is "conveniently" missing. This focal range is ideal off a FF and is, I believe, a hidden signal as to an imminent FF release.

Second, a 36 mp FF would fit perfectly in their top end body line up. 24mp APSC, "36 mp FF", 51mp medium format. MSRP Pricing could fall out as $1200, $3500, $8500. At $3500 (+/- $1000) a pentax FF would be very competitive against the CaNikon offerings.

And third, I have hope. Ricoh seams to be injecting life and vigor into the pentax name and line much more so than Hoya did.

Here's to hoping. 👍👍

Sound thinking....

Now all they have to do to make sure they are successful is keep the K mount... Many K mount film era lenses out there that would fit a full frame sensor.

Would instantly get many body's into market.... I know I would buy one and have some glass that would work already.

[mee]

Well, you can ask how much Theta development of the entire new department, product and services and marketing cost and what's the return from it? Does it make money?

In the exactly the same way Ricoh Imaging can start doing FF for Pentax, where they have some ground base for a better start anyway. I'd leave "it is not economical" speculations aside. We have no idea whether is it economical, or is it one of those more complex strategies that do make sense in the long run for the cmpany. For users like us, they may never make sense — from the point of view of our limited data.

The fact remains is that everybody is expecting Pentax to do it, and sometimes it is more worthwhile answering to market just to prove you are listening, than not answer and suffer in other departments because people have presupposed you are uncommunicative, stubborn and dysfunctional.

Good point, having the FF body out might be one of those situations where as along as they don't lose money, they make money because it will draw more people to the Pentax 'ecosystem'.. be it in that FF, an APS-C, or even a Q.

Similar to how car makers develop their higher end sports cars.. I suspect they tend to make money off of them, but I think they're made more so because they can and because they are an exciting advertisements for your company, where most will see (as example) the Corvette or Mustang in the front of the car lot that will pull them in, and will drive out in a new SUV or Sedan.

[Daikokuya]

Theres a ton of K mount FF lenses for any Pentax FF that comes to market... due to Pentax's legacy of FF cameras. Even the modern and cheapo DA 35 and 50 lenses fill on a FF sensor (as tested by others on Pentax FF analog cameras). Yes, they need more modern lenses, but they aren't starting from square one.

Besides, they aren't reinventing the wheel. They have the experience gained from the K-3 and 645Z to springboard a FF to market if they want to go that route. I mean the company already has the mount, lens archetype, electronics, and body from the K-3, 645Z, and their previous history.

Again, you're not going to see a 3+ thousand dollar monster FF. You'll see a sharp midtier because sharp midtier is more accessible (financially) to many more people yet powerful enough to be desired. I agree, if they went the D810 route and priced it like a D810, they'd have their hands full. But I don't see that happening. If we saw a Pentax digi FF soon, I'd think we'd see it in the 1800-2200 price range with matching (for the price) features..

You aren't following. The experience in the K-3 to the 645Z doesn't necessitate the success in FF, because Pentax hasn't so far launched digital FF, where Canikon has a dominant share. The 1800-2200 model has to compete against the D610, the 6D, and the A7/r/s.

Think about Sony's FF. Has the A900 or the A99 eroded Canikon's share? The A7/r/s is a bit different story, which I think has gained some market share due to its lightness and versatility. However, the A-mount FF is miserable in terms of sales. I have once heard that the A900 can't be profitable unless twice the amount is sold with twice the price. The main pillar of Sony's camera division is P&S. When Sony made profits in P&S, there were few problems to lose money in the A-mount. But now things are completely different. P&S is losing. That's why Sony is reluctant to update the A-mount body and lens, which could jeopardize the whole camera business.

Unless Pentax shows that they can make a true difference in FF markets unlike Sony, things would go awful which could really topple Pentax business to the point where the K-mount, once the world's dominant camera mount, is gone. If you're a manager, could you risk that?

How do you know Pentax is bleeding?

Ricoh's CEO Mr. Miura said so last year. According to him, Pentax's aim is to be break-even, not profitable!

[philbaum]

You aren't following. The experience in the K-3 to the 645Z doesn't necessitate the success in FF, because Pentax hasn't so far launched digital FF, where Canikon has a dominant share. The 1800-2200 model has to compete against the D610, the 6D, and the A7/r/s.

Think about Sony's FF. Has the A900 or the A99 eroded Canikon's share? The A7/r/s is a bit different story, which I think has gained some market share due to its lightness and versatility. However, the A-mount FF is miserable in terms of sales. I have once heard that the A900 can't be profitable unless twice the amount is sold with twice the price. The main pillar of Sony's camera division is P&S. When Sony made profits in P&S, there were few problems to lose money in the A-mount. But now things are completely different. P&S is losing. That's why Sony is reluctant to update the A-mount body and lens, which could jeopardize the whole camera business.

Unless Pentax shows that they can make a true difference in FF markets unlike Sony, things would go awful which could really topple Pentax business to the point where the K-mount, once the world's dominant camera mount, is gone. If you're a manager, could you risk that?

Ricoh's CEO Mr. Miura said so last year. According to him, Pentax's aim is to be break-even, not profitable!

Sounds about right.

Digital Cameras - Clearance Sony Store - Sony US

Sony presently has their A7 on sale with the 28-70 zoom for $1499. Which is getting close to K3 current price of $1404 with 18-135 lens @Amazon.

I don't think Pentax could hope to recoup the overhead to built their first FF in a while.

[Oldhand]

An interview by Dave Etchells with Mr. Takashi Arai, a member of the 1st Product Planning Group in Ricoh Imaging Company's Global Marketing Division as recorded on:
Ricoh/Pentax Q&A: Ricoh tech into Pentax cameras, whither full-frame, and lots more
by William Brawley
posted Friday, March 14, 2014 at 5:52 PM EDT


DE: Going back to the Pentax line - every time I let our readers know that I'm going to do an interview with someone from Ricoh or Pentax, they always ask about full-frame K-mounts, full-frame K-mounts.
Ricoh: *laughs*
DE: Isn't that true?
Ricoh: That's true.
DE: The answer is usually something like, “We're looking into it, we'll do something when we think the time is right.” Can you give me any more insight than that? Is the time getting closer to being right?
Ricoh: *laughs* Still we are -
DE: Still you're looking.
Ricoh: Yes, looking for a good time to launch full-frame. At the present time, we are stronger on medium format cameras - that is one of the reasons why we developed prototypes for the 645.


Doesn't indicate a no FF camera this year - but hints at it.
OH