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View Poll Results: Do you think FF will be announced at Photokina?
Yes 21632.58%
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06-29-2014, 02:13 PM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Fair enough, I'd forgotten about that patent. I think it's relevant but not a given.
Nothing is a given until it ships. Pentax has had a couple of FF prototypes, and none of them have ever gone to market. Pentax has never filed a patent (that I have seen) for a 70-200 F/4 lens and never produced one. Its possible we see a lens come to market without Pentax filing a patents, but I doubt it.

Pentax has several excellent lenses that they could modernize and bring back to market with little R&D cost. I'm hoping the A* 135mm F/1.8 is modernized into a F-DA* 135mm F/1.8 HD DC.

06-29-2014, 02:47 PM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Economies are irrelevant because company size and overheads are different. Nikon needs much more margin on top to sustain itself than Ricoh Imaging. That means, even with, say, twice as "bad" sensor prices, Ricoh Imaging can end up being better overall in terms of profit than Nikon.

That´s a good and right point
Last smalltalk with Pentax buddys has the same topic
06-29-2014, 03:28 PM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Daikokuya Quote
You aren't following. The experience in the K-3 to the 645Z doesn't necessitate the success in FF, because Pentax hasn't so far launched digital FF, where Canikon has a dominant share. The 1800-2200 model has to compete against the D610, the 6D, and the A7/r/s.
True enough, but the fact that Pentax can virtually make the same camera (k-3) with three different sensor sizes is too good an opportunity to let go...

It also spread out deveolping costs for the future assuming they will continue this "platform" thinking for high-end cameras.

In addition, many FF lenses, particularly telephoto ones makes just as much sense, if not more, for the APS line-up. There are no significant savings to be had in reducing the image circle to APS for such lenses; a 70-200/2.8 will be equally expensive for both formats and have the same size.
06-29-2014, 04:11 PM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Nothing is a given until it ships. Pentax has had a couple of FF prototypes, and none of them have ever gone to market. Pentax has never filed a patent (that I have seen) for a 70-200 F/4 lens and never produced one. Its possible we see a lens come to market without Pentax filing a patents, but I doubt it.

Pentax has several excellent lenses that they could modernize and bring back to market with little R&D cost. I'm hoping the A* 135mm F/1.8 is modernized into a F-DA* 135mm F/1.8 HD DC.
The 135 F/1.8 sells for ~$2k used! A bit silly, I've often wondered why Pentax doesn't step into that space... but I guess it's a matter of projected volume.

We'll see about the telephotos. I hope you're right, and it's a F/2.8. If it's an F/4 I'm not going to bother, I don't think... I'd like to have something that would have enough flexibility for me to use with T/C's.

06-29-2014, 04:28 PM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pentax has several excellent lenses that they could modernize and bring back to market with little R&D cost. I'm hoping the A* 135mm F/1.8 is modernized into a F-DA* 135mm F/1.8 HD DC.
I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but I think there is zero chance under Ricoh we'll ever see any focal length in between 100 mm and 200 mm in the form of a prime lens. 105mm, 135mm, 150 mm etc? Zoom perhaps, but a prime, and so fast? No chance.
06-29-2014, 05:35 PM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but I think there is zero chance under Ricoh we'll ever see any focal length in between 100 mm and 200 mm in the form of a prime lens. 105mm, 135mm, 150 mm etc? Zoom perhaps, but a prime, and so fast? No chance.
So Ricoh was lying when they said they wanted to compete with Canon and Nikon in the professional photography market..... Good to know.
06-29-2014, 05:59 PM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
So Ricoh was lying when they said they wanted to compete with Canon and Nikon in the professional photography market..... Good to know.
Who ever said that Ricoh said they want to compete with Nikon and Canon?
I believe it was quite the contrary; they don't want to compete with them directly, because it is a suicide. Even in the latest interview, newly appointed chief of marketing at Ricoh Imaging noted their strategy is not being the fastest, biggest, etc. which would be required if they wanted to compete directly with fastest and biggest.
06-29-2014, 06:15 PM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
The 135 F/1.8 sells for ~$2k used! A bit silly, I've often wondered why Pentax doesn't step into that space... but I guess it's a matter of projected volume..
In 1999 I was told that the A* 135/1.8 would cost $1600 if put into production unmodified. It came fram a source as reliable as can be!

---------- Post added 06-30-14 at 03:16 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
So Ricoh was lying when they said they wanted to compete with Canon and Nikon in the professional photography market..... Good to know.
I don't think Nikon and Canon sell many prime lenses in this focal lenght range.

If Pentax release a 70-200/2.8 They'll have that range covered for 99%. The only old lens I think they should put into production is the FA* 200/4 Macro. That is a legendary lens....


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 06-30-2014 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
06-29-2014, 06:23 PM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
In 1999 I was told that the A* 135/1.8 would cost $1600 if put into production unmodified. It came fram a source as reliable as can be!\
I believe it, but at the same time, Sony / "Zeiss" have a 135mm F/1.8 right now that's $1700 new. With inflation, that's probably ~$1200 in 99?
06-29-2014, 08:10 PM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Who ever said that Ricoh said they want to compete with Nikon and Canon?
Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm
" I have no hesitation, in my mind and in my business direction, that in the future—whether it’s three years or five years out—that there will be three dominant imaging companies on a global basis and it will be Canon, Nikon, and Pentax/Ricoh.

The reason I say that with such confidence is if you really look at Ricoh, which is our parent, Ricoh as a company is more than half the size of Canon and is twice the size of Nikon. And they’re already a dominant imaging company. They have a global footprint, they have office automation, and obviously the printer business and copier business is their heart. So if you had to compare Ricoh as a company we’re much more similar to that of Canon than we are of Nikon."
-----Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm

---------- Post added 06-29-14 at 10:19 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I don't think Nikon and Canon sell many prime lenses in this focal lenght range.
I think they sell more than you think. One of the first lenses Sony produced for FF was the 135mm CZ. Sony has 2 different 135mm prime lenses in production with the 135mm STF the second. Sony is expected to update the 135mm CZ to SSM drive at the end of the year. It will probably be announced with the A99II.

Sigma has a 135mm F/2 ART in the works. Obviously Sony and Sigma see a market for this. It gives you the reach of a 200mm on an APS-C and works as a long portrait lens on FF, so it has two markets. For indoor sports the F-DA*135mm F/1.8 would be a great option on an APS-C.

Last edited by Winder; 06-29-2014 at 08:20 PM.
06-29-2014, 09:39 PM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm
[I][B]" I have no hesitation, in my mind and in my business direction, that in the future—whether it’s three years or five years out—that there will be three dominant imaging companies on a global basis and it will be Canon, Nikon, and Pentax/Ricoh.

The reason I say that with such confidence is if you really look at Ricoh, which is our parent, Ricoh as a company is more than half the size of Canon and is twice the size of Nikon. And they’re already a dominant imaging company. They have a global footprint, they have ....
I don't know what to say about that very bold statement.
I have never read anything similar coming from the engineering or the marketing department of the Ricoh Imaging Japan. In fact, certain statements they make rather illustrate a different picture, of a much more modest approach to life. In fact, I think they are happy they exist, that's all.

Last edited by Uluru; 06-29-2014 at 11:46 PM.
06-30-2014, 12:40 AM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm
" I have no hesitation, in my mind and in my business direction, that in the future—whether it’s three years or five years out—that there will be three dominant imaging companies on a global basis and it will be Canon, Nikon, and Pentax/Ricoh.

The reason I say that with such confidence is if you really look at Ricoh, which is our parent, Ricoh as a company is more than half the size of Canon and is twice the size of Nikon. And they’re already a dominant imaging company. They have a global footprint, they have office automation, and obviously the printer business and copier business is their heart. So if you had to compare Ricoh as a company we’re much more similar to that of Canon than we are of Nikon."
-----Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm

---------- Post added 06-29-14 at 10:19 PM ----------



I think they sell more than you think. One of the first lenses Sony produced for FF was the 135mm CZ. Sony has 2 different 135mm prime lenses in production with the 135mm STF the second. Sony is expected to update the 135mm CZ to SSM drive at the end of the year. It will probably be announced with the A99II.

Sigma has a 135mm F/2 ART in the works. Obviously Sony and Sigma see a market for this. It gives you the reach of a 200mm on an APS-C and works as a long portrait lens on FF, so it has two markets. For indoor sports the F-DA*135mm F/1.8 would be a great option on an APS-C.
More power to Mr Malcom, but didn't Sony want to be Number two by now and there were pretty bold plans from Samsung too I recall...
Obviously we won't settle this, particularly as being number 1,2 or 3 really depend on your definition of "Imaging Company". Most of us are intersted in cameras and lenses, Mr. Malcom includes every lens put into a photocopier, endoscope, machine vision and on and on. These things are very important to the bottom line but have less relevance to us as consumers.

Btw, I bought one of those dreaded Sigma 135/1.8 lenses on ebay a while back out of simple curiosity and my conclusion would be they are not very useful. Wide open, narrow dof really becomes more than a problem, it is a real nuissance and stopped down it is better than some reports had led me to believe, but you are still lugging a very heavy lens for little practical benefit. That big front element is pretty gorgeous though .
06-30-2014, 07:48 AM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
Btw, I bought one of those dreaded Sigma 135/1.8 lenses on ebay a while back out of simple curiosity and my conclusion would be they are not very useful.
The Sigma 135mm F/1.8 ART hasn't been released yet. Its not expected until 2015.

---------- Post added 06-30-14 at 10:01 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
Most of us are intersted in cameras and lenses, Mr. Malcom includes every lens put into a photocopier, endoscope, machine vision and on and on.
How do you know what lenses Mr. Malcom is including? He is EVP of Pentax. He has nothing to do with the photocopier business or endoscopes. Hoya kept Pentax's medical imaging division, so Ricoh doesn't own that business. Mr. Malcom is specifically talking about photogrpahy and cameras in the interview. When he says he wants to compete with Nikon, he's not referring to the photocopier business.
06-30-2014, 08:14 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm
" I have no hesitation, in my mind and in my business direction, that in the future—whether it’s three years or five years out—that there will be three dominant imaging companies on a global basis and it will be Canon, Nikon, and Pentax/Ricoh.

The reason I say that with such confidence is if you really look at Ricoh, which is our parent, Ricoh as a company is more than half the size of Canon and is twice the size of Nikon. And they’re already a dominant imaging company. They have a global footprint, they have office automation, and obviously the printer business and copier business is their heart. So if you had to compare Ricoh as a company we’re much more similar to that of Canon than we are of Nikon." -----Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm
Where in that bolded statement does he say they want to compete with Canon or Nikon? If he said that Ricoh/Pentax were going to be THE dominant imaging company, then, yes, they are competing dierectly with Canon and Nikon.
His statement implies that within 5 years, they will have bested Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Samsung etc... but not Canikon.

Almost every move they have made since taking over has been looking at markets that are not controlled by by Canikon.
APS-C has been languishing with the big 2, so they have put out those cameras. Same with the lenses, with their odd focal lengths, not so fast focal apertures and re-badging the limiteds.
Then they bypass the FF market, which is dominated by the big 2, and concetrate on the 645Z,
06-30-2014, 08:35 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Where in that bolded statement does he say they want to compete with Canon or Nikon? If he said that Ricoh/Pentax were going to be THE dominant imaging company, then, yes, they are competing dierectly with Canon and Nikon.
His statement implies that within 5 years, they will have bested Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Samsung etc... but not Canikon.

Almost every move they have made since taking over has been looking at markets that are not controlled by by Canikon.
APS-C has been languishing with the big 2, so they have put out those cameras. Same with the lenses, with their odd focal lengths, not so fast focal apertures and re-badging the limiteds.
Then they bypass the FF market, which is dominated by the big 2, and concetrate on the 645Z,
The question that Malcolm as asked:
"So do you see Pentax in the next couple of years being a viable competitor to Canon and Nikon?"

His Response:

"No doubt about it. I have no hesitation, in my mind and in my business direction, that in the future—whether it’s three years or five years out—that there will be three dominant imaging companies on a global basis and it will be Canon, Nikon, and Pentax/Ricoh."


IF.... Pentax plans on competing with Canon & Nikon and being one of the big 3 in the industry, then they will produce a FF body and they will expand their lens line-up to include the traditional fast primes.

Last edited by Winder; 06-30-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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