Originally posted by ElJamoquio I think you missed some nuance in his post. Back in the day, a great lens was, say, a '7' and a good lens was a '4'. Now a great lens is a 9 and a good lens is an 8.
No, I think you missed the nuance in mine. Even if the difference in lens quality was greater (which is debatable), it didn't matter much in the film days because large differences in lens quality wouldn't be noticed as much. Digital has made us far more susceptible to small differences in quality. It's also dramatically increased our standards I started out shooting the M 28 f2.8 and M 50 f2 on a K1000. Much later I bought a ZX-M with the A 35-80 f4-5.6. In the 35mm film I was shooting, I could not easily tell any significant differences between those primes and the zoom. But once I started shooting those lenses on digital, the differences were much easier to detect. You simply cannot compare ILC digital to 35mm film. If you were shooting film and you really cared about IQ, you definitely would want to move up medium or large format film.
Originally posted by jsherman999 You didn't quite follow my point I think, and it's in two parts:
I followed it, I just don't agree with it.
Originally posted by jsherman999 With regard to resolution, that's actually not true in many cases - the MTF scores are telling a different story, that you improve your resolution more by going with a higher-MP sensor
Now you're the one who's not following me. I never argued that the image from the smaller sensor might be better because it has more resolution. No, that's completely missing the point. I'm challenging the whole notion that equates IQ with resolution. Most lenses are sufficiently sharp; but that doesn't mean differences in lenses are no longer important. Rather, it means that differences in resolution are no longer as important. And that's true whether you're comparing lenses or sensor size. For the most part, resolution is no longer the primary problem. We have enough of it for most of our needs. Where it takes on importance is for big cropping and/or larger print size. Even in those instances, differences between lenses and sensor size (or MP counts) are not as significant as they're made out to be. The fact that this lens/sensor combo produces 20% more resolution is hardly significant. It's two inches greater print size in a 20" by 20" print. However, other characteristics of lenses do impact how an image look, particularly microcontrast and color rendition. These can be seen even in smaller print sizes. They have a greater aesthetic impact than mere resolution.
I know a photographer who shoots with the Olympus 12-60 lens on the OM-D EM-5. He sells large gallery wraps (~24 to 30 inches) at a local gallery. The images are rich, contrasty, detailed and stunning. If those same images had been shot with an FF camera, they might have been technically sharper. But adding sharpness to those gallery wraps wouldn't have improved them, because they were already more than sharp enough. But taking away the richness of the color, the contrast, the overall rendering would have had a devastating impact on those images.
Now I have enough experience with lenses, post-processing, and printing to know that the best sort of contrast and color comes, not from PP, but from the lens. Adding a little bit of contrast, a little bit sharpening, a little bit of saturation can improve nearly any image; but adding large doses of these things is usually detrimental to the aesthetic impact of a print.
High end lenses are contrasty lenses: they all feature excellent microcontrast and produce vivid images with a lot of pop and rich, aesthetically satisfying color. That's true of Zeiss lenses, of Pentax limiteds and star glass (and the DA 10-17), of Olympus HG and SHG lenses, of Canon L glass, etc. etc. Lower end glass is less contrasty, produces less pleasing colors. Since I like contrasty, richly colored images, I prefer shooting with higher end glass. I therefore conclude that contrast, color, and overall rendering are more important (within certain parameters) than mere resolution. Generally speaking, an image shot with an Olympus SHG lens on a four-thirds will look better and have greater aesthetic impact than an image shot with a consumer grade lens on an FF sensor.
Originally posted by jsherman999 For the quants among us
I'm certainly no quant, but a pragmatist. I made decisions on the basis of what images look like to human perception, not how they measure. Measurements are often used to give scientific and objective basis to the judgments that are really qualitative and aesthetic. After all, it is an aesthetic judgment to decide that a particular metric has any significance at all.
The problem with quants is, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, that they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.