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View Poll Results: Do you think FF will be announced at Photokina?
Yes 21632.58%
No 44767.42%
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09-02-2014, 05:34 PM   #496
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
Agree that the 1:1.7Q is far weaker in the end, but I believe it is due to a higher mag ratio to end media and insufficient pixelation density to make up for the larger magnification needed to display/view it...
With higher MP it would also require significantly sharper, better-corrected lenses and extremely accurate AF to have any hope of matching aps-c or FF for higher-end telephoto. It also is not going to be able to provide the same subject isolation, bokeh quality, etc, unless they can design some radically fast lenses for it.

QuoteQuote:
I guess what I am saying is 1.5:1 is sig less with the other variables than the Q 4.1:1
It is, the 'Q' was using an extreme to prove a point though - going down in sensor size to try to take advantage of pixel density for 'telephoto' operates on a rapidly-diminishing curve, in part because of those aberrations, focus errors, and just lens limitations.

09-03-2014, 08:50 AM   #497
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Just to be clear - you think the Q would be substantially better, with, say, 24MP or 36MP?
If you can manage pixel "crosstalk" (the extra light bouncing around pixels from the pixel next door), I would always take the higher res (pixel density per sensor size), accepting that the smaller glass needs to perform better since some aberrations may be magnified. They are mostly manageable algorithmically (in camera preferred or Post produx).

I don't know of anyone cramming 24-36mp in a 1:1.7 (commercial or not). A lot of shoehorning.
09-03-2014, 10:19 AM   #498
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But they are putting 20+ MP in a 1/2.3".
09-03-2014, 10:25 AM   #499
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What is the size of the sensor in the Nokia 808 pureview? I know it is supposed to be a 40mp sensor, but what size is it?

09-03-2014, 10:41 AM   #500
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Yes 20mp in 1:2.3

QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
But they are putting 20+ MP in a 1/2.3".
It is getting closer. I don't know where it will end up.... Where the diminishing returns are with all of the variables:

  1. pixel pitch
  2. sensor size
  3. image circle
  4. human resolving need by media (what is it worth/ cost for print/ video/pc/phone)....
  5. in-camera processing
  6. aberration management (in-camera/ post processing) algorithms
  7. storage
  8. battery life/ power drain....
  9. portability
  10. ruggedness...
  11. optics... Glass will be a constraint(thresholds/ constraints on deliverable resolution to the sensor)
all are part of the equation.

I am anxious to see who picks up the Toshiba sensor... In stills....
09-03-2014, 10:58 AM   #501
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
If you can manage pixel "crosstalk" (the extra light bouncing around pixels from the pixel next door), I would always take the higher res
I would always take the higher resolution file, too, but you have one big IF in there, and there's another - light hitting the 'wiring', that microlenses attempt to fix but do not do so perfectly.

File size and file transfer time, buffer time, etc would be adversely affected.

Those are some of the minuses.

The pluses? Better resolution, sure, but on a lp/mm basis the Q lenses are already the highest testing lenses out there to my knowledge. I doubt they'd improve much when you triple resolution, especially since, among lenses out there, they're already at their best wide open - i.e. diffraction is causing a significant portion of the softness.

If there were an 8mm F/0.2 or F/0.5 released, though, of course it would no longer be diffraction limited.

It's a case of diminishing returns, and on a smaller sensor with equivalently-slow lenses, you're close to the limit already.

---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 11:00 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
It is getting closer. I don't know where it will end up.... Where the diminishing returns are with all of the variables:

  1. Marketing
  2. pixel pitch
  3. sensor size
  4. image circle
  5. human resolving need by media (what is it worth/ cost for print/ video/pc/phone)....
  6. in-camera processing
  7. aberration management (in-camera/ post processing) algorithms
  8. storage
  9. battery life/ power drain....
  10. portability
  11. ruggedness...
  12. optics... Glass will be a constraint(thresholds/ constraints on deliverable resolution to the sensor)
all are part of the equation.

How could you forget the most important reason? Fixed that for you....
09-03-2014, 11:02 AM   #502
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I would always take the higher resolution file, too, but you have one big IF in there, and there's another - light hitting the 'wiring', that microlenses attempt to fix but do not do so perfectly.

File size and file transfer time, buffer time, etc would be adversely affected.

Those are some of the minuses.

The pluses? Better resolution, sure, but on a lp/mm basis the Q lenses are already the highest testing lenses out there to my knowledge. I doubt they'd improve much when you triple resolution, especially since, among lenses out there, they're already at their best wide open - i.e. diffraction is causing a significant portion of the softness.

If there were an 8mm F/0.2 or F/0.5 released, though, of course it would no longer be diffraction limited.

It's a case of diminishing returns, and on a smaller sensor with equivalently-slow lenses, you're close to the limit already.

---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 11:00 AM ----------




How could you forget the most important reason? Fixed that for you....
THX. Lost it there, have a head cold....Appreciate the backup...
09-03-2014, 01:01 PM   #503
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
What is the size of the sensor in the Nokia 808 pureview? I know it is supposed to be a 40mp sensor, but what size is it?


09-03-2014, 01:07 PM   #504
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Crop factor of ~3 from 36x24 IIRC.
09-04-2014, 02:07 AM   #505
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
If you can manage pixel "crosstalk"
Samsung have apparently solved this problem in some of their mobile phone cameras (ie the Galaxy S5, the mobile phone with the #1 image quality ranking on DxOMark), and have now applied the same technology in their new 28MP APS-C flagship camera the NX-1 (the first APS-C to break the 28 MP barrier).

They call it their 'CMOS ISOCELL' technology, which:
QuoteQuote:
ISOCELL technology forms a physical barrier between neighboring pixels – isolating the pixel. This isolation enables more photons to be collected from the micro-lens and absorbed into the correct pixel’s photodiode minimizing undesired electrical crosstalk between pixels and allowing expanded full well capacity (FWC).

Compared to conventional BSI pixels, the ISOCELL pixels decrease the crosstalk by approximately 30 percent which results in higher color fidelity to reproduce the original color with sharpness and richness, and increase the full well capacity (FWC) by 30 percent which leads to greater dynamic range.
Samsung Launches ISOCELL: Innovative Image Sensor Technology for Premium Mobile Devices


Be interesting to see how it works on the NX1.
09-04-2014, 02:25 AM   #506
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NX1 is a pretty impressive looking machine!

No LED's though, get with the program Samsung
09-04-2014, 02:32 AM   #507
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Samsung have apparently solved this problem in some of their mobile phone cameras (ie the Galaxy S5, the mobile phone with the #1 image quality ranking on DxOMark), and have now applied the same technology in their new 28MP APS-C flagship camera the NX-1 (the first APS-C to break the 28 MP barrier)..
Samsung have not solved, but improved the cross talk with 30%.
I'm not sure how much of a problem crosstalk is on other APS-C sensors, but an improvement of 30% might not be all that much. Fi a change from 10% to 7%.

So I would not expect the improvement to be very large on APS-C sensors, but if Samsung finally can make sensors in the same league as Sony it would be really great.
09-04-2014, 03:07 AM   #508
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
if Samsung finally can make sensors in the same league as Sony it would be really great.
Indeed. Maybe Pentax might revive it's old technology sharing agreement with Samsung if this Samsung sensor tech works out OK

I bet this tech will perform even better if they use it in a FF sensor.
09-04-2014, 04:59 AM   #509
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I bet this tech will perform even better if they use it in a FF sensor.
Crosstalk is usually a bigger problem on small sensors (small pixels). Just like BSI, ISOCELL is mostly designed to improve IQ on small pixel sensors in smartphones.
09-04-2014, 07:25 AM   #510
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I was actually surprised at how well my Galaxy S5 does for pictures, but I didn't know it was because of a different tech.
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