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View Poll Results: Do you think FF will be announced at Photokina?
Yes 21632.58%
No 44767.42%
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09-05-2014, 08:29 PM   #541
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I met a guy in August last year who was an avid Pentax fan (those are rare in the wild around here). He was convinced that Pentax would be releasing a FF camera that year. He _knew_ it for a fact in the depth of his soul.

Then came the K-3... I can only imagine the crushing disappointment he felt when no FF materialized. Me, I expected no FF, and I found myself very excited about the K-3. Pre-ordered one early. Best damn camera I've ever owned.

There will be no FF this year at Photokina. In this day and age, no new tech appears out of the void. There's always *some* leak beforehand. At the very least a strong rumor. There's been no such beast in the months leading up to Photokina. Anyone hoping for a FF is in for disappointment.

But I look forward to seeing what Pentax has up its sleeve.


Last edited by GoremanX; 09-05-2014 at 08:36 PM.
09-05-2014, 09:09 PM   #542
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There is no point in Ricoh releasing a FF camera; everyone else has one. However, if they put their time and effort into R&D for a proprietary medium format sensor and get it into a quality Pentax camera at a sub $4000 price point they will own the commercial photography market. Get one to consumers for under $1500 and they will own the that market as well. Do they have the will?
09-05-2014, 09:47 PM   #543
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoremanX Quote
But I look forward to seeing what Pentax has up its sleeve.
To me it always looked Pentax comes to presentations and big shows in T-shirts.
They have no sleeves to speak about. But that is at least reassuring. It says, "Don't have unreasonable expectations from us; we barely handle this what you see'.

Last edited by Uluru; 09-06-2014 at 03:57 AM.
09-05-2014, 10:30 PM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote
There is no point in Ricoh releasing a FF camera; everyone else has one. However, if they put their time and effort into R&D for a proprietary medium format sensor and get it into a quality Pentax camera at a sub $4000 price point they will own the commercial photography market. Get one to consumers for under $1500 and they will own the that market as well. Do they have the will?
I was going to say no, but for a bunch of guys who wear suits in their commercials, doing the K-01, KS-1, and the various flavours of Pikachu and Hello Kitty colour schemes, it seems like they are ok taking risk, but apparently just with the wrappings.

It's almost like they've been selling the same camera since the K-7, just in different plastic. I know all the subcomponents have been changed; new metering, new wb sensor, new af, new processor, new sensors, ... but maybe because those are known-quantity improvements it's a given that it's ok (or required) to upgrade them.

Given that all these subcomponents add up to maybe $500 retail, you'd have $3500 per sensor for cost and profit. Say you can blow $1000 on each sensor. That's still $2500 in your pocket.

So that leaves the mount / sensor. I always thought FF was the sweet spot between MF and compact cameras for lens size, but I prefer the look of MF.

Someone said it before me, but what the heck... 'kickstarter'

09-05-2014, 10:42 PM - 1 Like   #545
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QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote
There is no point in Ricoh releasing a FF camera; everyone else has one. However, if they put their time and effort into R&D for a proprietary medium format sensor and get it into a quality Pentax camera at a sub $4000 price point they will own the commercial photography market. Get one to consumers for under $1500 and they will own the that market as well. Do they have the will?
They should stop making APS-C cameras too. Talk about a flooded market.
09-05-2014, 11:15 PM   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
They should stop making APS-C cameras too. Talk about a flooded market.
Really? Can you not think like a business person at all? You really can't see beyond what you want. The Pentax brand has a history in MF, analog and digital, but you want them to spend money in an area where they have no experience. None. Zero. Nada.
09-05-2014, 11:35 PM   #547
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They're all doomed...

Market for DSLRs shrinking dramatically and why Canon / Nikon are to blame | EOSHD.com

Probably should start making selfie-phones where the big sensor is on the front.
09-05-2014, 11:42 PM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I was going to say no, but for a bunch of guys who wear suits in their commercials, doing the K-01, KS-1, and the various flavours of Pikachu and Hello Kitty colour schemes, it seems like they are ok taking risk, but apparently just with the wrappings.

It's almost like they've been selling the same camera since the K-7, just in different plastic. I know all the subcomponents have been changed; new metering, new wb sensor, new af, new processor, new sensors, ... but maybe because those are known-quantity improvements it's a given that it's ok (or required) to upgrade them.

Given that all these subcomponents add up to maybe $500 retail, you'd have $3500 per sensor for cost and profit. Say you can blow $1000 on each sensor. That's still $2500 in your pocket.

So that leaves the mount / sensor. I always thought FF was the sweet spot between MF and compact cameras for lens size, but I prefer the look of MF.

Someone said it before me, but what the heck... 'kickstarter'
I agree. Those small increments and sort of non-changes would allow them to maintain appearances in the market whilst focusing on MF. That's assuming they have a forward thinking mentality. Hoya boned the Pentax brand by not bringing out a FF offering to the marketplace when FF was the technological cutting edge. Now, full frame "just is", and it's dominated by Canon and Nikon and always will be, full stop.

Medium format is the future of digital and I have a difficult time with this fixation on full frame as if it was something totally new. Anyone who wants a "full frame" (35mm) digital camera can find one quite easily these days and that's the rub. Even the term "full frame" is something I have a difficult time with. "Full frame", what? Full frame 4x5, 6x7, 8x10? I get it, I'm on a Pentax site (because, believe it or not, I like their gear for what it is). I imagine it's tough for some so-called "Pentaxian"s who have been on board since APS-C was the dominant format to come to terms with the fact that their brand did not have a good steward during the formative years of full frame technology; it's tough to miss the boat.

What does one do when one misses the boat? Well, if one has experience in hydrofoils, one cuts to the chase and designs a hydrofoil that can kick a planing hull's ass. I know, no one will get this analogy; whatever.

09-05-2014, 11:59 PM - 1 Like   #549
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QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote
Really? Can you not think like a business person at all? You really can't see beyond what you want. The Pentax brand has a history in MF, analog and digital, but you want them to spend money in an area where they have no experience. None. Zero. Nada.
I'm glad you weren't calling the shots when Pentax introduced digital apsc and digital 645.

Before they introduced those formats, pentax had no experience introducing those formats.
09-06-2014, 02:42 AM   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote
There is no point in Ricoh releasing a FF camera; everyone else has one. However, if they put their time and effort into R&D for a proprietary medium format sensor and get it into a quality Pentax camera at a sub $4000 price point they will own the commercial photography market. Get one to consumers for under $1500 and they will own the that market as well. Do they have the will?
Not sure about that. The likely reason everyone else has FF cameras in their range of products is that there is a market for them. Going off in a different direction on a one-off basis is much harder. You can't be sure there is market for your product - it might be a black hole rather than a niche - and you carry all the cost and risk of setting it up and educating consumers. If your guess was correct, then others will pile in and cream off customers without having to pay the costs you've had to pay to establish that segment. Call it first mover tax. A great example of this is the Sony A7. Sony have been able to enter the FF market without having to pay a massive proportion of the costs usually associated with that, because they can take advantage of lens adapters. Sony can cream off the cost others have had to carry for lens development while establishing their presence. Sony are producing FF lenses for the A7, of course, but they can do so in a somewhat measured fashion and after the fact. They have never had to spend (and risk) $$$ on a line of lenses upfront before any product is launched at all. Sony can also take advantage of the many millions Canonikon have already spent pump-priming the FF market (though Sony have had to do some of that with their A series, to a degree).

Anyway, the point is that for a company like Ricoh, entering the FF market is cheaper and easier than it ever has been, even though it still carries a risk and heavy costs. Others have already paid for a huge amount of the ground work. Even the sensors are moving into yesterday's sunk costs.

Ricoh still have a lot of work to do to cement their position in MF as it is. They need the best tethering software in the business and quite a few more lenses, but new ones. For example, no tilt-shift lenses would probably drive some commercial photographers straight into the arms of Canonikon FF anyway or all the way up to PhaseOne and co. And there is the flash question. Flash on any Pentax camera has always been a little, er, well ...

As for Ricoh and Pentax, we don't really know how interested they are in cementing their position in MF or in any other sector. That's because we don't know whether they are interested in becoming the world's dominant player (or one of them, anyway) in segment X rather than a player more interested in meeting their sales targets in Japan and Asia and, when that is done, declaring job complete and disappearing back home. Think service networks, TS lenses, top software, full product range available in many countries, and so forth. If I was a commercial photographer, I wouldn't want to invest in any system which didn't have very good representation in the form of loaner, service and repair facilities in the country I lived in. Guess which two companies usually have those. The question is usually always the same: I have $$ thousand dollars to invest in camera equipment: looking over the field, which of these outfits are really serious about the format and equipment I need and, what's more, have clearly shown they are where I live?

Last edited by mecrox; 09-06-2014 at 06:23 AM.
09-06-2014, 04:34 AM   #551
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There's no way- Love Parade like, shiny and colourfully variation of some current body would rather be expected. Of course, it will have dico player inside...
New version of da 18-55 also will appear. Nothing more, unfortunately. I've lost all hope (dope?).
09-06-2014, 05:42 AM   #552
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There's plenty of room for Pentax to release a new body:

FF is obvious, since the tech is out there and the lens line-up already has a good start, and/or
APSC with better focus tracking and greatly improved video function, and/or
Expansion of the MF line
09-06-2014, 06:56 AM - 1 Like   #553
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Pentax can release a successful FF camera. They'll do it when there isn't anything more profitable for them to do with their production capacity at the time.
09-06-2014, 07:22 AM - 1 Like   #554
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Production Capacity? Yes, R&D and Launch...mNo

Pentax P&L clearly shows that the $150+mm for new FA* glass and FF DSLR will be hard to find. Unless Ricoh wants to be on a spending binge, they will put R&D dollars into longer glass for 645Z, longer and HD/WR updates for APSC. I think we could (due to miniaturization and requisite tech improvements in pixel pitch below 3.9) see a 36mp APSC in a K-3 body long before a FF. 24mpFF with a K-Mount lens box (although thicker) would be a serious competitor to A7R, leveraging all of that great legacy glass out there. A lot less R&D/Sunk cost...
09-06-2014, 08:09 AM - 1 Like   #555
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"No experience" in making... what they make? ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote
Really? Can you not think like a business person at all? You really can't see beyond what you want. The Pentax brand has a history in MF, analog and digital, but you want them to spend money in an area where they have no experience. None. Zero. Nada.
No experience?!?

1) They were making "FF" lenses for decades before digital hit
2) Arguably their best lenses - and among the best made by anyone - are FF (FA LImiteds, FA 85, etc.) What needs to be done to "update" those is well-known and well within Pentax's ability.
3) No additional "experience" is needed to make a FF body that they haven't acquired in making an aps-c digital body - it's largely the exact sane thing, with faster ASICS, bigger mirror box, VF, sensor.
4) Firmware is going to be nearly identical

They have less experience in making a MILC of any size. DSLR is greased-grooves for them.


.

---------- Post added 09-06-14 at 09:18 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote

Medium format is the future of digital .
Anything that's $5000+ for the body alone is niche only. Markets have sweet-spot price points, $5K-$50K digital bodies (and $5K lenses) don't live there. I suppose Pentax could give up on anything smaller and transform itself into a cheaper Hasselblad or something, but we're still talking about selling maybe 4000 units per year to rich hobbiests and a few product and landscape pros.

If MFD comes down to the $3K or $2K range, somehow, it could take the place of FF - but then FF is going to be taking the place of aps-c and we'll have some killer, inexpensive, uber-fast FF MILCS to choose from by that time

Last edited by jsherman999; 09-06-2014 at 08:37 AM.
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