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View Poll Results: Do you think FF will be announced at Photokina?
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09-09-2014, 11:14 AM - 1 Like   #646
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I don't think it's fair to describe criticism of Fuji as "anti-Fuji circlejerk." Fuji's being criticized for a specific decision -- namely, matching large lenses with small cameras. Until these large f2.8 zooms (and the 50-140 f2.8 is even bigger -- 2.2 lbs), Fuji was doing a good job of matching lenses with the cameras, keeping lens size down (even coming out with high end variable aperture lenses, which most mirrorless manufacturers (other than Leica) don't have the guts to do). Fuji was supposed to be the company that cared about the user experience with the camera (as opposed to Sony, who cares primarily about technology). But now, with these f2.8 zooms, Fuji has descended to Sony's level.
Fuji is just getting its glass in place for the launch of a larger professional body with a more contemporary style. People who don't want the large constant aperture F/2.8 zooms can always buy the smaller zooms that are already on the market. I'm amazed at the number of people who get irritated when a company offers more than one choice. Fuji offers an 18-55mm F2.8-4.0 and an 18-135MM F/3.5-5.6 for the people who don't want the 18-55mm F/2.8.... You have choices. For most people that is not a bad thing.

09-09-2014, 12:35 PM   #647
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I don't think it's fair to describe criticism of Fuji as "anti-Fuji circlejerk." Fuji's being criticized for a specific decision -- namely, matching large lenses with small cameras. Until these large f2.8 zooms (and the 50-140 f2.8 is even bigger -- 2.2 lbs), Fuji was doing a good job of matching lenses with the cameras, keeping lens size down (even coming out with high end variable aperture lenses, which most mirrorless manufacturers (other than Leica) don't have the guts to do). Fuji was supposed to be the company that cared about the user experience with the camera (as opposed to Sony, who cares primarily about technology). But now, with these f2.8 zooms, Fuji has descended to Sony's level.

Incidentally, my biggest objection to a new "modern" Pentax mount to replace the K-mount is not so much the adapters or EVFs (although I object to those things too) but the size of the cameras that would be built around this new mirrorless mount. For the photography I do at the local zoo, I need to shoot with large lenses; and I don't want to be shooting large lenses on a small camera: that's a very difficult combination to stabilize. Small cameras are great -- when matched with small lenses. With larger lenses, an SLR mount camera is preferable.
Thanks and nice input ... plus without using direct crude terms.

Just to get an idea, I looked up to find that the X-T1 weighs 390 grams (0.85 pounds) according to my B&M store website, and the 16-55/2.8 should come in around 700 grams (1.5 pounds), given that a "similar lens" like the Samsung 16-50 f2-2.8 comes in at 622 grams (NB: it's not a constant F and shorter focal length).

I'll take my ol' K-5 and slow DA 15 Ltd @ 190 grams (or even my DA 16-45/4 @ 366 grams) any day over that much Fuji weight/bulk and lack of balance/handling. With the DA 15, one hand shooting is a breeze ... would like to see some one, especially with big clumsy paws like mine, one-hand the Fuji 16-55/2.8 on the small grip X-T1.

Last edited by Jean Poitiers; 09-09-2014 at 01:28 PM.
09-09-2014, 01:01 PM   #648
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
No, on an APS-C NEX camera. My FF 35mm F1.4 would work like a 24.5mm F1.0 APS-C lens so a much better option but much larger.
Actually you weren't think relatively. Actually a 35mm FF lens on an APS-C with lens turbo pro will only give you relative back to 35mm not 2xmm you were thinking of. The entire point of these lens turbo pro adapter is to "RESTORE" actual POV of a lens that's mounted on 35mm without multiplying the factor of 1.6x from the cropping.. In the other word, if you mount any FF lens with this adapter, you will get exactly what FF would see from a APS-C cropped sensor.

HOWEVER.. 21mm Limited on APS-C acts like 31.5mm.. Even the DA lens only covers APS-C size sensor. You can still mount it on a FF camera. Of course there will be corner issues that you need to crop off. From my test, You can crop as far as 25mm (with some dark corners).. Safest crop is actually 28mm without losing too much around the corner.

Original 21mm Limited (APS-C) on FF


After cropped to largest possible size (25.62mm)


Cropped to (25.62mm)


Sometimes, if you are lucky you won't get dark corners at all.. But I should've kept it at 28mm.. I was just too greedy so I always crop at 25mm with a tiny bit extra and suffer with dark corners.


Back to reality.. if you put a 21mm Limited for APS-C onto a FF, You don't get wider.. you get narrower... but you do get wider compare to a APS-C crop because you do get a little more extra coverage. But when I said you get wider.. it wasn't calculated from 21mm.. It was from 31.5mm..
09-09-2014, 01:12 PM   #649
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Jeebus - doesn't a lens turbo mean more glass? So it isn't a DA21, but a DA21 with a Lens Turbo (and degradation)?

I thought the idea was to shoot pancake lenses on large cameras using two hands to make a stable platform. Maybe by the time I die people will have forgotten about the 'two hands - stable platform' thing. Then people can shoot large lenses on pancake cameras.

09-09-2014, 01:19 PM   #650
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Jeebus - doesn't a lens turbo mean more glass? So it isn't a DA21, but a DA21 with a Lens Turbo (and degradation)?

I thought the idea was to shoot pancake lenses on large cameras using two hands to make a stable platform. Maybe by the time I die people will have forgotten about the 'two hands - stable platform' thing. Then people can shoot large lenses on pancake cameras.
Yes! You are absolutely right! That's why there is no point for those lens turbo thing.. It's quiet pointless. It's for people who likes to use NEX small camera with 35mm FF lenses... It does help for one.. If you would like to keep small form factor and continue use FF POV RF lenses.. for SLR lens adaption, it's pretty pointless and you lose image quality on the way.

That's why I was thinking.. my NEX was $699 (I bought it when it first came out), adding additional $400 for the lens adapter... but FullFrame A7 is only $1299......... Might as well upgrade to A7.
09-09-2014, 01:27 PM   #651
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This all sounds interesting, but in the end, if this large lens makes some users happy, that's all that really matters.

In my own opinion it doesn't look any more ridiculous than some of the super-zoom and -telephoto lenses I see on some cameras. It's just the way optics work. Perhaps they'll put a tripod collar on the lens.

Anyway, as the previous post stated, I'm pretty happy with the lighter Pentax branded lenses. Weight wasn't a huge factor when I chose the Pentax system, but I'm happy I have it. I've also mostly avoided Sigma branded lenses because of their weight versus similar lenses by Pentax and Tamron. But, oh well... Size can be quite important to some people. I did like that video posted a page back on the thread. It's nice to get some perspective sometimes.

I
09-09-2014, 01:38 PM - 1 Like   #652
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I don't think it's fair to describe criticism of Fuji as "anti-Fuji circlejerk." Fuji's being criticized for a specific decision -- namely, matching large lenses with small cameras. Until these large f2.8 zooms (and the 50-140 f2.8 is even bigger -- 2.2 lbs), Fuji was doing a good job of matching lenses with the cameras, keeping lens size down (even coming out with high end variable aperture lenses, which most mirrorless manufacturers (other than Leica) don't have the guts to do). Fuji was supposed to be the company that cared about the user experience with the camera (as opposed to Sony, who cares primarily about technology). But now, with these f2.8 zooms, Fuji has descended to Sony's level.

Incidentally, my biggest objection to a new "modern" Pentax mount to replace the K-mount is not so much the adapters or EVFs (although I object to those things too) but the size of the cameras that would be built around this new mirrorless mount. For the photography I do at the local zoo, I need to shoot with large lenses; and I don't want to be shooting large lenses on a small camera: that's a very difficult combination to stabilize. Small cameras are great -- when matched with small lenses. With larger lenses, an SLR mount camera is preferable.

Firstly, to get it out of the way: I'm confident that you understand that you can't fit all that tech within a small lens package - the size is a given. Even the Nikon 17-55 2.8 DX is pretty sizable.

The reason I find it strange is because does this imply that Fuji should have ignored the people that wanted (and have use for) these lenses, some of which may use a smaller lens like the XF 23/1.4 for street shooting, then a 16-55 for more general work where a fast 24-70 equivalent would be useful?

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I sincerely hope you get what I mean. These lenses are big due to what they contain - and obviously can't "match" the body size, the Fuji users that requested it know that but will use the lens either way, and these lenses aren't for everyone.

I think Jean Poitiers is complaining about how heavy the lens is and how he is unable to one-hand it - when the point is that the lens isn't meant to be one-handed and it sure isn't aiming at him for it's target market.



---------- Post added 09-10-14 at 04:46 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Fuji is just getting its glass in place for the launch of a larger professional body with a more contemporary style. People who don't want the large constant aperture F/2.8 zooms can always buy the smaller zooms that are already on the market. I'm amazed at the number of people who get irritated when a company offers more than one choice. Fuji offers an 18-55mm F2.8-4.0 and an 18-135MM F/3.5-5.6 for the people who don't want the 18-55mm F/2.8.... You have choices. For most people that is not a bad thing.
I sincerely thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing some common sense.

Last edited by Tom S.; 09-18-2014 at 02:06 PM.
09-10-2014, 02:53 AM   #653
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nagimaru Quote
... The way I see the criticism is: " EDITED by moderator.

---------- Post added 09-10-14 at 04:46 AM ----------



I sincerely thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing some common sense.
Nice language yet again ... first (EDITED by moderator) and now this one.

Never came to my mind and never out of my mouth.

And I not complaining ... it's just not my cup of tea and I don't see the point of it. I will vote (and veto) with my wallet, as usual and as I see fit.

Edit PS - I have a friend with a X-100 and he let me have a spin with it ... a very nice small camera. Slap a big lens on something of an equivalent size and it's ruined IMHO. I also stopped by my B&M store to look at the X-T1 ... nice, too; but only with a balanced lens (again IMHO). No complaining and I guess different opinions are not tolerated by some individuals.


Last edited by Tom S.; 09-18-2014 at 02:14 PM.
09-10-2014, 07:35 AM   #654
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about time

Pentax full frame about time was thinking would have to go for a cannon 5dmk3 if Pentax don't get there finger out as for lenses well Tamron have a good 20 to 70 f 2.8 and a good 70 to 200 f2.8 as well so perhaps some sort of deal with them would work but will have to be sooner than later as I am not that far from jumping ship
09-10-2014, 07:45 AM   #655
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
It is NOT due to weakness... They are making a surgically focused attack on APSc at CaNikon. This time, the discount is to take share as CaNikon have tried to make APSC look "terminal" to try for upselling to FF.

This one is going to get good....
I don't know. The total market is so weak that prize drops are enevatable.

Looking at a search, only aps-c body only from CaNiPen then the K-3 is even more expensive then the 7D.

De nieuwste digitale camera's koopt u bij CameraNU.nl

You can buy lots of olders models if you look around.
09-10-2014, 08:47 AM   #656
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Agree it's Soft...

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I don't know. The total market is so weak that prize drops are enevatable.

Looking at a search, only aps-c body only from CaNiPen then the K-3 is even more expensive then the 7D.

De nieuwste digitale camera's koopt u bij CameraNU.nl

You can buy lots of olders models if you look around.
I think folks are "obsoleting" below 16mps (APSc) to get to 16, and there is another slower flatter diffusion curve for 24mp APSc or some popping to FF. Gut tells me that the next APSc above 24MP will pull a bunch of 16mps out, due to less resizing and a bit more res. 24mp FF or APSc for Susan and me, gave is a big bang for the buck, so we jumped. a 30+mp APSC would likely have us jump again, but we'd stay put longer (K-3) for better long glass... Birding is a pain....
09-10-2014, 09:03 AM   #657
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Nice language yet again ... first (EDITED by moderator) and now this one.

Never came to my mind and never out of my mouth.

And I not complaining ... it's just not my cup of tea and I don't see the point of it. I will vote (and veto) with my wallet, as usual and as I see fit.

Edit PS - I have a friend with a X-100 and he let me have a spin with it ... a very nice small camera. Slap a big lens on something of an equivalent size and it's ruined IMHO. I also stopped by my B&M store to look at the X-T1 ... nice, too; but only with a balanced lens (again IMHO). No complaining and I guess different opinions are not tolerated by some individuals.
Well, welcome to the internet. I use colorful language to drive the point home, though. Not to offend you. You can, of course, choose to be offended by that if you wish.

I respect your opinion that the lens is too big for the camera, but your previous attempts at making a point have confused me greatly.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
What's the point of a huge, "f2.8 fast" APS-C UWA zoom lens attached to a small MILC ?! And at what price point ?

Well, at least one could say, "Mine's BIGGER than yours" ...
QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Whatever ... A circlejerk it is then.

How much is this lens and how many copies do you think they will sell ? A "profit maker" lens or "loss leader" for the prestige factor ... and please explain the benefits of an APS-C 16mm @ f/2.8 to me. Enlighten my ignorance.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
With the DA 15, one hand shooting is a breeze ... would like to see some one, especially with big clumsy paws like mine, one-hand the Fuji 16-55/2.8 on the small grip X-T1.
At this point, I'm not too sure what your train of thought was - that a APS-C 24-70 is not needed on a Fuji because no one will use or buy it? Or that a 16-55/2.8 is useless because it is on an APS-C camera?

I'm just trying to explain to you that:

a) The lens was released for people that put functionality over size and price, and asked Fuji for it.

b) A 24-70 is going to be huge and expensive with all the additional bells and whistles inside of it. It isn't meant to be one handed. It would be strange to see a 5D III user attempting to one-hand a 24-70L and I would expect the same from this 16-55.

c) Just because the X series is APS-C doesn't mean that it can't use a fast 24-70. Some professionals that use Fuji do have a use for one. Take Zach Arias, for example.

I'll leave this here, and I'll just chalk it up to me misunderstanding your attempt at an argument, if English isn't your first language. I was under the assumption that you, thought that the release lens was a fallacy because it is big and expensive for no reason and it was meant for nobody, which I saw as an opportunity to attempt to inform you of the reasons why it exists. If that was your stance though, I hope you learnt something from the reasons I provided.

Once again, I respect your opinion, but if you ever want to enter an argument, I hope you at least formulate your points in a logical manner for the other party to comprehend.

Last edited by Tom S.; 09-18-2014 at 02:15 PM.
09-10-2014, 09:22 AM   #658
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nagimaru Quote
Well, welcome to the internet. I use colorful language to drive the point home, though. Not to offend you. You can, of course, choose to be offended by that if you wish.

I respect your opinion that the lens is too big for the camera, but your previous attempts at making a point have confused me greatly.


At this point, I'm not too sure what your train of thought was - that a APS-C 24-70 is not needed on a Fuji because no one will use or buy it? Or that a 16-55/2.8 is useless because it is on an APS-C camera?

I'm just trying to explain to you that:

a) The lens was released for people that put functionality over size and price, and asked Fuji for it.

b) A 24-70 is going to be huge and expensive with all the additional bells and whistles inside of it. It isn't meant to be one handed. It would be strange to see a 5D III user attempting to one-hand a 24-70L and I would expect the same from this 16-55.

c) Just because the X series is APS-C doesn't mean that it can't use a fast 24-70. Some professionals that use Fuji do have a use for one. Take Zach Arias, for example.

I'll leave this here, and I'll just chalk it up to me misunderstanding your attempt at an argument, if English isn't your first language. I was under the assumption that you, thought that the release lens was a fallacy because it is big and expensive for no reason and it was meant for nobody, which I saw as an opportunity to attempt to inform you of the reasons why it exists. If that was your stance though, I hope you learnt something from the reasons I provided.

Once again, I respect your opinion, but if you ever want to enter an argument, I hope you at least formulate your points in a logical manner for the other party to comprehend.
Whatever ... go away.
09-10-2014, 09:26 AM   #659
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Whatever ... go away.
Do have a nice day, though! You take nice pictures. Just do be more articulate in the things you type out the next time.
09-10-2014, 09:29 AM   #660
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nagimaru Quote
Do have a nice day, though! You take nice pictures. Just do be more articulate in the things you type out the next time.
Go away.
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