Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

View Poll Results: What sensor do you like best? (Sony)
24mp 10753.23%
36mp 9446.77%
Voters: 201. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-23-2014, 08:57 PM   #61
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,892
QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
I'm a physics major. I eat gaussian curves. I major in optics and dsp. I know what I'm talking about I don't think you understand diffraction.
Then optics should have started with your ~3rd 'physics' class, no?

Listen, I called them gaussian curves because that's good enough to achieve the correct answer. Do some 'binning' with any function simplification you'd like and it'll come out as plain as day... smaller bins will have more information at any realistic aperture but in particular at an aperture of only f/11. The peaks are just too high even at f/11.

02-23-2014, 09:04 PM - 1 Like   #62
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2012
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 587
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Then optics should have started with your ~3rd 'physics' class, no?

Listen, I called them gaussian curves because that's good enough to achieve the correct answer. Do some 'binning' with any function simplification you'd like and it'll come out as plain as day... smaller bins will have more information at any realistic aperture but in particular at an aperture of only f/11. The peaks are just too high even at f/11.

You know what, just carry on. You probably own a D800 (or worse, a K3). All this talk about resolution and sharpness don't mean anything if you can't shoot. But just because you do not believe in gravity does not mean it won't kill you if you jumped off a cliff
02-23-2014, 09:06 PM   #63
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,892
QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
You know what, just carry on. You probably own a D800 (or worse, a K3). All this talk about resolution and sharpness don't mean anything if you can't shoot. But just because you do not believe in gravity does not mean it won't kill you if you jumped off a cliff
My education, my possessions, and my photography are not relevant in the least in this matter.
02-23-2014, 09:10 PM   #64
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2012
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 587
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
My education, my possessions, and my photography are not relevant in the least in this matter.

I don't know anything about you and my posts were meant for the benefit of everyone. Just sharing whatever little I know. It's up to you if you believe them or not.

If you do want the math, I'll leave you with this one: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml

02-23-2014, 09:23 PM   #65
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,892
That doesn't mention Fraunhofer at all. We're not looking for airy disk diameters.
02-23-2014, 09:26 PM   #66
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2012
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 587
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
That doesn't mention Fraunhofer at all. We're not looking for airy disk diameters.

Higher math will not improve your resolution. Trust me lol!
02-23-2014, 09:30 PM   #67
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,892
Do the math with any intensity equation you'd like representing a slit experiment, etc; it will agree with the experiments showing that at F/11 there's a substantial improvement with a decrease of bin size.
02-23-2014, 09:35 PM   #68
Pentaxian
jsherman999's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,228
QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
[/COLOR]The whole point of my post is that, say at f11, a D4 with 16mp will resolve exactly the same as a D800 with 36mp with the same lens. The D800 will have a bigger image and that's it. You can blow up the D4 image in PS to arrive at the same 36mp without loss of detail. The advantage of the D4 is that you are not wasting space, your canera can shoot faster, your PC can process the images faster AND on the pixel level, the D4 has an unfair advantage over the D800 because of the larger sensels.
Again, diffraction is a function of lens + sensor - your F/11 hard limit you seemingly pull from the air isn't even tied to a specific lens (which it needs to be, to have a chance of being true ). As I said before, you may be able to find a lens that has a curve that drops off so fast at f/11 that a 24MP and 36MP would give equal resolution - but that probably wouldn't be a lens you'd consider for landscape work, because it would be kinda bad.

Here's some graphed measurements from Lensrentals, 24MP D3X vs. 36MP D800, same lens:




As you can see, right at f/11 the 36MP D800 is resolving about 870l, the 24MP D3x around 780l. So much for your f/11 hard limit

Landscapers also talk about how sharpening can mitigate the effects of diffraction even more with higher-MP sensors. Here's the result of some research from this link:

Quote:

"As Simone has shown, the resolving power of a 36mp camera at f/22 does out resolve a 21Mp sensor at any aperture setting. And into the future, a 50Mp sensor will continue to out resolve the 36Mp sensor, even at f/22. This has even been shown in practise as the 7D has the same pixel density as a possible full frame 50Mp camera."





Don't fear the MP!

.

02-23-2014, 09:42 PM   #69
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,892
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
As I said before, you may be able to find a lens that has a curve that drops off so fast at f/11 that a 24MP and 36MP would give equal resolution - but that probably wouldn't be a lens you'd consider for landscape work, because it would be kinda bad.
FWIW, if such a lens were found (equal resolution between 24MP and 36MP at f/11) the lens would not be "diffraction limited" and it still would not prove anything.

I think he's getting the F/11 from the airy disk diameters, the assumptions behind which throw away a lot of good information.
02-24-2014, 01:12 AM   #70
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2012
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 587
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Again, diffraction is a function of lens + sensor - your F/11 hard limit you seemingly pull from the air isn't even tied to a specific lens (which it needs to be, to have a chance of being true ). As I said before, you may be able to find a lens that has a curve that drops off so fast at f/11 that a 24MP and 36MP would give equal resolution - but that probably wouldn't be a lens you'd consider for landscape work, because it would be kinda bad.



Here's some graphed measurements from Lensrentals, 24MP D3X vs. 36MP D800, same lens:









As you can see, right at f/11 the 36MP D800 is resolving about 870l, the 24MP D3x around 780l. So much for your f/11 hard limit



Landscapers also talk about how sharpening can mitigate the effects of diffraction even more with higher-MP sensors. Here's the result of some research from this link:



Quote:



"As Simone has shown, the resolving power of a 36mp camera at f/22 does out resolve a 21Mp sensor at any aperture setting. And into the future, a 50Mp sensor will continue to out resolve the 36Mp sensor, even at f/22. This has even been shown in practise as the 7D has the same pixel density as a possible full frame 50Mp camera."











Don't fear the MP!



.

You posted a graph with no axis labels? What are those numbers supposed to mean?

Now to the table...

That sharpening "technique" looks questionable at best. You can't create data from nothing.

The theoretical resolution limit for a D800 with a perfect lens is about 175 lpmm and yet even with their sharpening kung-fu they can only acheive 105 lol!!! Obviously their lens is not even good enough for the sensor. Now if you look at reasonable values for a good lens (yellow column) you can see that even that good lens is no match for the sensor at f8.

If anything, your post should tell you that as soon as you stop down to f8 you are already throwing away precious megapickles.
02-24-2014, 07:08 AM   #71
Pentaxian
jsherman999's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,228
QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
You posted a graph with no axis labels? What are those numbers supposed to mean?
Don't try to be coy, the axis are aperture & resolution, you can see that. (Ask Roger Cicala if you want the data in tabular form.)


QuoteQuote:
Now to the table...

That sharpening "technique" looks questionable at best. You can't create data from nothing.
You can take their particular sharpening technique up with them, if you want, but the're saying something that shouldn't be a shock to anyone who's really shot landscape - the effects of diffraction are not something to be scared of, and a lot of blur that introduces can be mitigated by simple sharpening to gain acutance back. If you shoot with lower resolution in the first place, you have less raw data to even have that option. Here, check this out, it also contains the graphs that confused you because the obvious axis values were not labeled..


QuoteQuote:
If anything, your post should tell you that as soon as you stop down to f8 you are already throwing away precious megapickles.
I still don't think you're getting it. You're losing resolution with every lens on every sensor once it's past it's MTF peak and starting to lose resolution to diffraction. When you start with more pixels, though, the absolute resolution will always be greater, up to some arbitrary lens-dependent point, maybe around f/16. You are not 'wasting' anything unless you're shooting pretty bad lenses at very small apertures all the time.

.
02-24-2014, 08:02 AM   #72
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: N. Calif
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,537
We have not even had 100 people respond - maybe Adam needs to post a sticky/pointer on the home page?
02-24-2014, 09:34 AM   #73
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Photos: Albums
Posts: 147
I vote 24MP with less noise.
02-24-2014, 10:12 AM - 1 Like   #74
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by pearcemi Quote
I vote 24MP with less noise.
i agree... if it was in a crop sensor camera, that would have been a vote for more noise, not less, because higher pixel density usually means smaller pixels:

"Several factors affect noise.
Pixel size. Simply put, the larger the pixel, the more photons reach it, and hence the better the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) for a given exposure. The number of electrons generated by the photons is proportional to the sensor area (as well as the quantum efficiency). Noise power is also proportional to the sensor area, but noise voltage is proportional to the square root of power and hence area. If you double the linear dimensions of a pixel, you double the SNR.
The electron capacity of a pixel is also proportional to its area. This directly affects dynamic range."
Imatest - Noise in photographic images

Last edited by osv; 02-24-2014 at 10:22 AM.
02-24-2014, 10:24 AM   #75
Inactive Account




Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Spånga, outside Stockholm
Posts: 1
QuoteOriginally posted by Tesla Quote
What is more important to you in a FF camera.. More pixels from a 36mp sensor or less iso noise from a 24mp sensor?
I want high ISO with good quality, 24MP gives better light sensitivity.
At the same time it is probably the quality of the sesnors available at design/build time that makes the choise "for us".
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
24x36mm, 36mp, aps-c, bird, camera, canon, details, diffraction, f/11, f11, f5.6, fps, full-frame, handshake, landscapes, lens, lenses, lines, miss, mp, noise, pentax, photographers, progress, resolution, sensor, zeiss
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sony 24MP and 36MP A7 /A7r first look and pre-order today ! jogiba Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 83 11-23-2013 07:07 PM
36MP full frame camera club falconeye Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 157 07-28-2012 02:33 PM
Nikon announces 24MP D3200 twitch Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 38 04-23-2012 09:27 AM
Sony FF 24MP Alpha 99 prototype info rawr Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 9 03-29-2012 01:44 AM
Nikon D800 36mp sensor detail kills the Canon 5D MKIII jogiba Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 28 03-12-2012 05:26 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:01 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top