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03-07-2014, 11:31 PM   #1
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I am a Full Frame Mess!

I've fawned over the majesty of full frame for years.. I was really into the Sony A7 until I got my hands on one, I couldn't stand the EVF, and the high ISO performance really isn't up to par with the likes of Canon. I then set my sights on the Cannon 5DmarkIII, too expensive.. Ok the 6D, awesome low light but still too expensive..


So I figured who needs a full frame anyway! I bought a K5 IIs and shot with it a few weeks, I really liked it, but I just couldn't escape the thought that if im going to spend a lot of money to upgrade I should get what I want... I returned the K5.. I went to my local camera store and checked out a 6D.. I wont lie, I like my Pentax way better in terms of feel and controls.. But I feel like waiting for Pentax to release a full frame is a fools errand.. And even when they do, will it be k-mount? Will it be mirrorless? Will it be pro-level competing with the 5DIII and D800 or will it compete with the 6D/D600? Will it stand up to Canon's high-iso performance, because no one else seems to be able too.. My point is, that even if I do wait, no one knows anything.. I might not be able to afford the offering anyway, or maybe it will be EVF and I wont be interested.


I'm not highly invested in Pentax glass right now... If im going to "get out" now is the time.. I really love Pentax, I feel like they produce the best quality cameras for the money out of anyone.. But I feel like im on a losing team with an unknown future...


Amazon has the 6D for $1999 bundled with a 24-105mm L lens. My local camera store is selling the 6D for $1800/body!!!. $2k bundled with an $1100 lens is too good to pass up...


I think it's time, but im not happy about it..

03-07-2014, 11:36 PM   #2
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A7 at high iso is better than Canon.

I am expecting a full frame in Sept/Oct. It is probable but not guaranteed.

Buy what you'd like. Try used, that way if you switch out later you won't be out too much.
03-08-2014, 12:30 AM   #3
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There are compromises that have to be made when getting a 6D in terms of ergonomics and costs of future lenses. But it's still a very useable tool. You could be sure that a Pentax FF will have the ergonomics we know and love in our existing APS-Cs. The problem we simply can't overcome is that it isn't here yet...
03-08-2014, 01:10 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmbaile2 Quote
I've fawned over the majesty of full frame for years.. I was really into the Sony A7 until I got my hands on one, I couldn't stand the EVF, and the high ISO performance really isn't up to par with the likes of Canon. I then set my sights on the Cannon 5DmarkIII, too expensive.. Ok the 6D, awesome low light but still too expensive..


So I figured who needs a full frame anyway! I bought a K5 IIs and shot with it a few weeks, I really liked it, but I just couldn't escape the thought that if im going to spend a lot of money to upgrade I should get what I want... I returned the K5.. I went to my local camera store and checked out a 6D.. I wont lie, I like my Pentax way better in terms of feel and controls.. But I feel like waiting for Pentax to release a full frame is a fools errand.. And even when they do, will it be k-mount? Will it be mirrorless? Will it be pro-level competing with the 5DIII and D800 or will it compete with the 6D/D600? Will it stand up to Canon's high-iso performance, because no one else seems to be able too.. My point is, that even if I do wait, no one knows anything.. I might not be able to afford the offering anyway, or maybe it will be EVF and I wont be interested.


I'm not highly invested in Pentax glass right now... If im going to "get out" now is the time.. I really love Pentax, I feel like they produce the best quality cameras for the money out of anyone.. But I feel like im on a losing team with an unknown future...


Amazon has the 6D for $1999 bundled with a 24-105mm L lens. My local camera store is selling the 6D for $1800/body!!!. $2k bundled with an $1100 lens is too good to pass up...


I think it's time, but im not happy about it..
Have you handled a D610? I really like Nikons ergonomics. People like to complain that it feels "plasticity" but it is a weather sealed body, and quite honestly, its never going to fall apart on you.

03-08-2014, 01:41 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Have you handled a D610? I really like Nikons ergonomics. People like to complain that it feels "plasticity" but it is a weather sealed body, and quite honestly, its never going to fall apart on you.
I liked the feel of the Nikon better, but I circled back to the high ISO performance being inferior to the canon. And the canon didn't feel flimsy by any means. Just kind of big and bulky...

I really don't want to learn a new system, I know I'll be missing shots whilst fiddling with the camera. Pentax is very intuitive for me, I can change settings very quickly.

Maybe I should just get an old 5D and a cheap 50mm lens so I have a full frame to play with. Meanwhile I can move on with my life and keep my Pentax gear.

This is why I say I'm a mess. I can't decide on anything.
03-08-2014, 01:46 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmbaile2 Quote
I wont lie, I like my Pentax way better in terms of feel and controls.. But I feel like waiting for Pentax to release a full frame is a fools errand.. And even when they do, will it be k-mount? Will it be mirrorless? Will it be pro-level competing with the 5DIII and D800 or will it compete with the 6D/D600? Will it stand up to Canon's high-iso performance, because no one else seems to be able too.. My point is, that even if I do wait, no one knows anything..
QuoteOriginally posted by dmbaile2 Quote
Amazon has the 6D for $1999 bundled with a 24-105mm L lens. My local camera store is selling the 6D for $1800/body!!!. $2k bundled with an $1100 lens is too good to pass up...


I think it's time, but im not happy about it..
If you were happy about it, and pretty sure about your lens path (cost and what you want) I'd say go ahead. But if you're not happy, I'm not sure why you should ...


Besides, what great thing are you expecting to get from a FF? Not that you shouldn't get one, but is there something fantastic about it that you'll need in the next 9 months?


Pentax has certainly been working on a FF for quite a while now. So it's reasonable to expect one to be announced by the end of the year. We do know it will be K-mount, and it's very likely to have good high-ISO performance. What's wrong with the D610's performance here anyway? I'd expect it to at least match that.



Figure out what lenses you want. Buy based on that.



The D610 and 6D are both reasonably good choices right now. But unless you're planning on buying barely any lenses, don't let the savings of a few hundred dollars now on the Canon kit tempt you by itself. And if you don't want a few good lenses, then why are you buying an ILC at all? You'll be spending thousands on lenses later, so get the system you want. Also keep in mind that, historically, Canon and Nikon strategically take features away from their entry level cameras (either FF or APS-C) - features people commonly want - in order to up-sell them. Pentax has given us excellent entry level cameras. So whatever the pricing is, and whether Pentax introduces 1 FF camera or 2, I don't expect them to "artificially" under-design their offerings just so they can up-sell us later.

Lenses will get more expensive (and already are) from all the camera makers, but if that's your big concern you have no right looking at FF anyway.

---------- Post added 03-08-14 at 01:11 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by dmbaile2 Quote
I liked the feel of the Nikon better, but I circled back to the high ISO performance being inferior to the canon. And the canon didn't feel flimsy by any means. Just kind of big and bulky...
I'm not buying it. You were looking at a Sony 7 or 7R, which isn't even as good as the D610. Now you suddenly need the ~2/3 of a stop improved high ISO performance of the 6D over the D610?


I just went through the exercise of figuring out what lenses I'd get if I were to get a Nikon D610. There are a few gems in there. But I'm not convinced I'd be happy with the overall package (mostly some lenses missing or being too expensive compared to what I've got in K-mount). At the end of the day, I'm not even sure I like the way Nikon renders images as much as Pentax. So I'm just not sure I want their system.

Last edited by DSims; 03-08-2014 at 01:52 AM.
03-08-2014, 04:21 AM   #7
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I'm confused - sorry, but let me ask a couple of questions.
  • What do you consider high ISO?
  • Why do you feel the need for such high ISO? Photographing a black cat in a totally dark room lite by a small candle?
  • What level of image quality is acceptable to you out of the camera?
  • Are you willing to apply some post noise reduction?

03-08-2014, 04:29 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmbaile2 Quote
I liked the feel of the Nikon better, but I circled back to the high ISO performance being inferior to the canon. And the canon didn't feel flimsy by any means. Just kind of big and bulky...

I really don't want to learn a new system, I know I'll be missing shots whilst fiddling with the camera. Pentax is very intuitive for me, I can change settings very quickly.

Maybe I should just get an old 5D and a cheap 50mm lens so I have a full frame to play with. Meanwhile I can move on with my life and keep my Pentax gear.

This is why I say I'm a mess. I can't decide on anything.
I don't understand your reasoning. If you want a full frame camera, the D600/610 sensor is a better sensor according to DXO Mark. It isn't even close. Total score for the 6D is 82 (same roughly as the K5), for the D610 it is 94 -- a point differential of 5 is probably visible in real world shooting. The dynamic range at base iso for the 6D is only 12 (quite a bit worse than the K5 or the 610) and sports iso for 6D is 2340, while the D610 is 2925.

I don't know if you need a full frame camera, but certainly if you want one that is going to give a lot better performance in every area, not just high iso, I would pick a Nikon camera over a Canon one at this point. As to whether or not you actually "need" one, it is up to you. Cameras in general aren't a need anyway, so it is more important that you have gear that you like and will use, than that you explain it anyone else (except maybe a spouse if you are on a budget).

03-08-2014, 05:30 AM   #9
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K3 v D600

Have a look at this first.


Nikon D600 vs. Pentax K-3 Image Comparison: Pentax Sweeps Nikon


Would you rather have the best APSC camera or a not so great full frame? Besides a smaller camera with compact primes is more likely to be with you when photo opportunities arise.
03-08-2014, 05:31 AM - 1 Like   #10
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It's you who makes the photographs, not the camera. If you think that FF will makes things better that's up to you and your money.

Me? My photos will always be bad regardless of what I use to make them, but I'll be happy doing it with my Pentax kit.

I've always found beer is helpful when trying to make difficult decisions. I used to buy a lot of hi-fi equipment. Best choices were always made on a Friday afternoon after a few hours in the pub with my friends!
03-08-2014, 05:40 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmbaile2 Quote
I've fawned over the majesty of full frame for years... I think it's time, but im not happy about it..
Hmmmmm... You list Colorado as your location. Perhaps you've been smelling too many "roses" , or are just bored and in need of a vacation...

Anyway, here's a link written by a working pro who re-discovered the love built into the K-01 (of all things):

Ripe Camera: All the cameras are better than you are...

...and if it's boredom, try...

Outrunning Those Just Behind You | byThom | Thom Hogan

Good luck... M

Last edited by Michaelina2; 03-08-2014 at 06:07 AM.
03-08-2014, 05:45 AM   #12
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Unless I missed it, I didn't see you saying why you need full-frame. Are you making large prints? How large? Are prints you made from the K5IIs not holding up for lack of resolution? Or is there some other reason you need the higher resolution?
03-08-2014, 06:48 AM   #13
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This all sounds like gadget lust gone wild.

If you don't have any real need for FF, don't get FF. Simple.
03-08-2014, 07:04 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
This all sounds like gadget lust gone wild.

If you don't have any real need for FF, don't get FF. Simple.
I tend to a agree...
if you cant tell that the D600 has much better high iso than a 6D, then you probably wont fully appreciate FF vs an APS-C anyway.

Then again I am not one to dissuade gadget lust since I have bought and sold about 85% of all modern pentax lenses lol.
03-08-2014, 07:29 AM   #15
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Lordy, lordy.. just what is it you think you'll be getting from a 6D or D600 that you wouldn't get from a K-3? Have you actually looked at the comparison images on Imaging Resources? I'm not saying there aren't benefits to FF. Just saying there may not be benefits to you. Even for large prints, a K-3 would be just as good as a 6D or D600, and if you aren't going for 30x20 on glossy, a K-5 IIs would be indistinguishable. For resolution you want a D800 of A7r, ($3,000) for low light you want a D4s ($7,000) Lets not be pretending we can pay the same money as APS-c and get different quality just because it's FF. If it costs the same as APS-c, you'll get roughly the same results as APS-c in a bigger package.
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