Practical FF resolution is 30-40% better than sans-AA APS-C

Nesster · 04-16-2014, 12:33 PM

Question: before retrofocal wide angles, why would you have picked a SLR over a RF?

Being a 105mm or wider kind of guy (Am I allowed to say that here, I mean it in the FF terms...) Or Being a 70mm or wider guy

I would hope Pentax adopted the 5 way SR from Olympus and ideally integrated it in 4 dimensions to combat my flapping arms... and I suppose I'd have to develop a sudden passion for ultra telephoto birds and nature shooting.

Or, I'd just use the kit lens. And use the legacy glass just to ~~show off~~ I mean play around with. If Pentax suddenly went Olympus on us.

jsherman999 · 04-16-2014, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

Concerned primarily with FOV, but to some extent noise. DOF? Meh.

There are reasons the three (FOV, DOF and noise) have to be tied together there (ie can't just lose one but not the other,) but leaving that alone for now: is it reasonable to assume that if you had legit concerns about losing noise control moving from aps-c to m43 with your same lenses, that someone else might have equally legit concerns moving from FF to aps-c? Or maybe even more understandable concerns, since the sensor-area delta between FF and aps-c is greater than that between aps-c and m43?

Parallax · 04-16-2014, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by jsherman999

is it reasonable to assume that if you had legit concerns about losing noise control moving from aps-c to m43 with your same lenses, that someone else might have equally legit concerns moving from FF to aps-c? Or maybe even more understandable concerns, since the sensor-area delta between FF and aps-c is greater than that between aps-c and m43?

That's absolutely reasonable. I'm not convinced however that noise has anything to do with sensor size per se. If you trim a 24x36 sensor to APS-c dimensions, or an APS-c sensor to micro 4/3 it's the same sensor, just less of it. A 36Mpx 24x36 vs a 36Mpx micro 4/3 is a different matter.

cali92rs · 04-16-2014, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

That's absolutely reasonable. I'm not convinced however that noise has anything to do with sensor size per se. If you trim a 24x36 sensor to APS-c dimensions, or an APS-c sensor to micro 4/3 it's the same sensor, just less of it. A 36Mpx 24x36 vs a 36Mpx micro 4/3 is a different matter.

Compare the noise of a Q and K-5 at ISO 800.

Sensor size is THE determining factor in the difference in noise.

Parallax · 04-16-2014, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

Compare the noise of a Q and K-5 at ISO 800.

Those are 2 different sensors. The one in the Q is not a trimmed down K-5 sensor. Put a lens on a Nikon D600 and take a shot in full mode, then the same shot in APS-c mode then compare the noise level.

Originally posted by cali92rs

Sensor size is THE determining factor in the difference in noise.

If that were true, then the noise of the K-5, K7, K20D and K10D would all be exactly the same because they all have the same size sensor.
Compare the noise of a Fujifilm X10 to a K10D at 800.

cali92rs · 04-16-2014, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

Those are 2 different sensors. The one in the Q is not a trimmed down K-5 sensor. Put a lens on a Nikon D600 and take a shot in full mode, then the same shot in APS-c mode then compare the noise level.
If that were true, then the noise of the K-5, K7, K20D and K10D would all be exactly the same because they all have the same size sensor.

OK, I was overgeneralizing...still it is probably the biggest factor.
You are comparing cameras of different ages and generations.

How about the D600 vs the D7100?
That is about as apples to apples as your going to get.
Same processor, same resolution, both sony sensors.
Nikon D7100 versus Nikon D600 - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark

The D600 trounces the D7100 when it comes to noise.
Why?

Parallax · 04-16-2014, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

The D600 trounces the D7100 when it comes to noise.

Again, 2 different sensors. An 8 ounce filet Mignon is going to be more tender than a 6 ounce sirloin which is certainly more tender than a 4 ounce chuck steak. Does that demonstrate the bigger a steak is, the more tender it is?

Last edited by Parallax; 04-16-2014 at 02:52 PM.

Na Horuk · 04-16-2014, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

The D600 trounces the D7100 when it comes to noise. Why?

Possibly because the D600 has a greater bit depth (25.1 bits).. just like the K-5 has better noise performance (and DR) than the K-30, because of some extra bits.. even thought it is the same Sony sensor

cali92rs · 04-16-2014, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

Again, 2 different sensors. An 8 ounce filet Mignon is going to be more tender than a 6 ounce sirloin which is certainly more tender than a 4 ounce chuck steak. Does that demonstrate the the bigger a steak is, the more tender it is?

One is a top of the line APS-C sensor....the other is a middle of the road FF sensor.
The 8 ounce chuck steak is beating the 4 ounce filet mignon.

JinDesu · 04-16-2014, 02:51 PM

Why not just compare the D800 to the D7000/k-5/whatever? I thought the D800's sensor was the big brother version of the k-5 sensor. And this is reflected that in the per pixel noise: they match. It's just that the D800 is larger and has more pixels so when scaled, the D800 does better.

cali92rs · 04-16-2014, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

Possibly because the D600 has a greater bit depth (25.1 bits).. just like the K-5 has better noise performance (and DR) than the K-30, because of some extra bits.. even thought it is the same Sony sensor

The K-5 has 14 bit Raw, the K-30 has 12 bit Raw.
The D600 and D7100 both have 14 Bit Raw.

You guys are really stretching here.

JinDesu · 04-16-2014, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

One is a top of the line APS-C sensor....the other is a middle of the road FF sensor.
The 8 ounce chuck steak is beating the 4 ounce filet mignon.

But the D610/D600 beats the D800 in high ISO too. It's a factor of different sensors. The D610/D600 likely wins out due to the larger photosites, but the D800 also is no slouch. Just commenting on the idea that the 8 ounce chuck steak also beats out the 8 ounce filet mignon..

ElJamoquio · 04-16-2014, 03:09 PM

On a per-pixel level, the D800 and the K-5 have the same noise level.

On a noise in a picture level, the D800 trounces the K-5 if DOF is allowed to change.

At the same DOF the D800 and the K-5 will have the same noise, you can see that it's within spittin' distance in the chart below.

http://drcameraphd.blogspot.com/2013/04/fitdoesntmatter.html

Parallax · 04-16-2014, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

Just because you guys are not convinced does not make it true. It means you do not understand.

So if size is "THE" factor then a photo shot with a D800 in full mode will have less noise than one shot of the same scene, same lighting, same exposure, and same lens in APS-c mode, right? If size is "THE" factor, it would have to be, right?

ElJamoquio · 04-16-2014, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

So if size is "THE" factor then a photo shot with a D800 in full mode will have less noise than one shot of the same scene, same lighting, same exposure, and same lens in APS-c mode, right? If size is "THE" factor, it would have to be, right?

Huh?

What are your constants and what are your non-constants?

It sounds like you want to keep constant:

1) Focal Length
2) 'Exposure' - i.e. aperture and ...
3) shutter speed

If you keep those two constant the chart I posted shows there's ~60% improvement in noise.

04-16-2014, 02:29 PM	#140
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by cali92rs Compare the noise of a Q and K-5 at ISO 800. Those are 2 different sensors. The one in the Q is not a trimmed down K-5 sensor. Put a lens on a Nikon D600 and take a shot in full mode, then the same shot in APS-c mode then compare the noise level. Originally posted by cali92rs Sensor size is THE determining factor in the difference in noise. If that were true, then the noise of the K-5, K7, K20D and K10D would all be exactly the same because they all have the same size sensor. Compare the noise of a Fujifilm X10 to a K10D at 800. Last edited by Parallax; 04-16-2014 at 02:39 PM.

04-16-2014, 02:54 PM	#146
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Na Horuk Possibly because the D600 has a greater bit depth (25.1 bits).. just like the K-5 has better noise performance (and DR) than the K-30, because of some extra bits.. even thought it is the same Sony sensor The K-5 has 14 bit Raw, the K-30 has 12 bit Raw. The D600 and D7100 both have 14 Bit Raw. You guys are really stretching here. Last edited by cali92rs; 04-16-2014 at 03:01 PM.

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04-16-2014, 12:33 PM	#136
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	Question: before retrofocal wide angles, why would you have picked a SLR over a RF? Being a 105mm or wider kind of guy (Am I allowed to say that here, I mean it in the FF terms...) Or Being a 70mm or wider guy I would hope Pentax adopted the 5 way SR from Olympus and ideally integrated it in 4 dimensions to combat my flapping arms... and I suppose I'd have to develop a sudden passion for ultra telephoto birds and nature shooting. Or, I'd just use the kit lens. And use the legacy glass just to ~~show off~~ I mean play around with. If Pentax suddenly went Olympus on us.

04-16-2014, 01:30 PM	#137
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Parallax Concerned primarily with FOV, but to some extent noise. DOF? Meh. There are reasons the three (FOV, DOF and noise) have to be tied together there (ie can't just lose one but not the other,) but leaving that alone for now: is it reasonable to assume that if you had legit concerns about losing noise control moving from aps-c to m43 with your same lenses, that someone else might have equally legit concerns moving from FF to aps-c? Or maybe even more understandable concerns, since the sensor-area delta between FF and aps-c is greater than that between aps-c and m43?

04-16-2014, 02:14 PM	#138
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by jsherman999 is it reasonable to assume that if you had legit concerns about losing noise control moving from aps-c to m43 with your same lenses, that someone else might have equally legit concerns moving from FF to aps-c? Or maybe even more understandable concerns, since the sensor-area delta between FF and aps-c is greater than that between aps-c and m43? That's absolutely reasonable. I'm not convinced however that noise has anything to do with sensor size per se. If you trim a 24x36 sensor to APS-c dimensions, or an APS-c sensor to micro 4/3 it's the same sensor, just less of it. A 36Mpx 24x36 vs a 36Mpx micro 4/3 is a different matter.

04-16-2014, 02:23 PM	#139
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Parallax That's absolutely reasonable. I'm not convinced however that noise has anything to do with sensor size per se. If you trim a 24x36 sensor to APS-c dimensions, or an APS-c sensor to micro 4/3 it's the same sensor, just less of it. A 36Mpx 24x36 vs a 36Mpx micro 4/3 is a different matter. Compare the noise of a Q and K-5 at ISO 800. Sensor size is THE determining factor in the difference in noise.

04-16-2014, 02:39 PM	#141
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Parallax Those are 2 different sensors. The one in the Q is not a trimmed down K-5 sensor. Put a lens on a Nikon D600 and take a shot in full mode, then the same shot in APS-c mode then compare the noise level. If that were true, then the noise of the K-5, K7, K20D and K10D would all be exactly the same because they all have the same size sensor. OK, I was overgeneralizing...still it is probably the biggest factor. You are comparing cameras of different ages and generations. How about the D600 vs the D7100? That is about as apples to apples as your going to get. Same processor, same resolution, both sony sensors. Nikon D7100 versus Nikon D600 - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark The D600 trounces the D7100 when it comes to noise. Why?

04-16-2014, 02:44 PM	#142
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by cali92rs The D600 trounces the D7100 when it comes to noise. Again, 2 different sensors. An 8 ounce filet Mignon is going to be more tender than a 6 ounce sirloin which is certainly more tender than a 4 ounce chuck steak. Does that demonstrate the bigger a steak is, the more tender it is? Last edited by Parallax; 04-16-2014 at 02:52 PM.

04-16-2014, 02:47 PM	#143
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Originally posted by cali92rs The D600 trounces the D7100 when it comes to noise. Why? Possibly because the D600 has a greater bit depth (25.1 bits).. just like the K-5 has better noise performance (and DR) than the K-30, because of some extra bits.. even thought it is the same Sony sensor

04-16-2014, 02:49 PM	#144
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Parallax Again, 2 different sensors. An 8 ounce filet Mignon is going to be more tender than a 6 ounce sirloin which is certainly more tender than a 4 ounce chuck steak. Does that demonstrate the the bigger a steak is, the more tender it is? One is a top of the line APS-C sensor....the other is a middle of the road FF sensor. The 8 ounce chuck steak is beating the 4 ounce filet mignon.

04-16-2014, 02:51 PM	#145
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Why not just compare the D800 to the D7000/k-5/whatever? I thought the D800's sensor was the big brother version of the k-5 sensor. And this is reflected that in the per pixel noise: they match. It's just that the D800 is larger and has more pixels so when scaled, the D800 does better.

04-16-2014, 03:00 PM	#147
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	Originally posted by cali92rs One is a top of the line APS-C sensor....the other is a middle of the road FF sensor. The 8 ounce chuck steak is beating the 4 ounce filet mignon. But the D610/D600 beats the D800 in high ISO too. It's a factor of different sensors. The D610/D600 likely wins out due to the larger photosites, but the D800 also is no slouch. Just commenting on the idea that the 8 ounce chuck steak also beats out the 8 ounce filet mignon..

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04-16-2014, 03:09 PM	#148
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873 Original Poster	On a per-pixel level, the D800 and the K-5 have the same noise level. On a noise in a picture level, the D800 trounces the K-5 if DOF is allowed to change. At the same DOF the D800 and the K-5 will have the same noise, you can see that it's within spittin' distance in the chart below. http://drcameraphd.blogspot.com/2013/04/fitdoesntmatter.html

04-16-2014, 03:10 PM	#149
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by cali92rs Just because you guys are not convinced does not make it true. It means you do not understand. So if size is "THE" factor then a photo shot with a D800 in full mode will have less noise than one shot of the same scene, same lighting, same exposure, and same lens in APS-c mode, right? If size is "THE" factor, it would have to be, right?

04-16-2014, 03:16 PM	#150
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873 Original Poster	Originally posted by Parallax So if size is "THE" factor then a photo shot with a D800 in full mode will have less noise than one shot of the same scene, same lighting, same exposure, and same lens in APS-c mode, right? If size is "THE" factor, it would have to be, right? Huh? What are your constants and what are your non-constants? It sounds like you want to keep constant: 1) Focal Length 2) 'Exposure' - i.e. aperture and ... 3) shutter speed If you keep those two constant the chart I posted shows there's ~60% improvement in noise.