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09-07-2014, 01:43 PM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
But once the speed on FF is fast enough, they have had no use of APS-H, and I don't think many of their customers are missing APS-H.
Well I think that for sports a lot of people would buy a new offering in APS-H since your lens gets a little longer for free and the new sensors are great compared to the last aps-h.

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-1Dx-versus-Pentax-K5-versus-Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-IV___753_676_629

Somehow I think that the trick of not offering the option is going to end when the Nikon D750 arrivés at a low pricepoint compared to D4s and 1Dx. The topdogs are getting a beat down.

09-07-2014, 01:54 PM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Why do you think Canon stopped making APS-H cameras? If there was a big market for $5000+ APS-H DSLR Canon would still manufacture them, but that market has now been taken over totally by FF. FF has now the whole ILC market above $1500-2000.
I think Canon did it to streamline the offering. I know one professional wildlife shooter who ordered a second 1DIV as soon as he heard APS-H is going away. He values the added reach of APS-H. The new 7DII is going to be targeting professional wildlife shooters. The Canon 400mm F/5.6L on a 7D is a great combination for not a lot of money. I would expect that the 7DII will have a new 65 point AF system with all of them being cross type. The smaller sensor allows for nearly full frame coverage. The 7DII might be the new professional standard for sports and wildlife.

Sadly Pentax has nothing to compete with this setup.
09-07-2014, 01:59 PM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well I think that for sports a lot of people would buy a new offering in APS-H since your lens gets a little longer for free and the new sensors are great compared to the last aps-h.
You get even more for free on APS-C.
But I think alot of users would prefer to have a crop mode on the FF camera, so they don't need to invest in both FF and APS-H.
09-07-2014, 02:01 PM - 1 Like   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Sony has really bad leadership when it comes to market direction. They have missed the mark time and time again. The A7 launched with very few lenses because Sony was rushing it to market. Sony admitted that they were surprised by the demand for high end mirrorless and shifted A-mount resources over the E-mount two years ago. Sony is selling more A7 bodies than A99 bodies.

The popularity of the A7 cameras has driven up the demand for a lot of older manual glass. This has appealed to a lot of people and as more A7 bodies enter the market, demand for native FE lenses has increased. I'm a little surprised Zeiss is already making 3rd party lenses for the FE mount. If Zeiss didn't see strong growth in the mirrorless FF market they wouldn't be launching new product for it.
I don't think Sony cares about leadership, i think they just care about selling product

OLD THINK: Decide what kind of system to build, distribute body and several lenses at the same time

NEW Sony THINK: Decide what kind of system to build, distribute body with minimal lenses and adapters for legacy lenses, gauge customer response, go from there

I think Sony is actually doing as well with their new product introductions as the traditional camera companies. Examples of problem systems:

a. Pentax's K01 - they cancelled any follow-up product
b. Nikon's 1 system - They announced last year the system needs to be reworked - whatever that means
c. Canon's M-mount - They sold off remaining stock at heavy discount and reworked it somehow - don't have the details

In contrast
d. I can't think of any recent Sony camera introductions that have gone bad. E and FE mount bodies were both introduced with minimal lenses, and have had successful introductions judging by review comments. Sony is gradually providing additional lenses for these systems to the extent that the A-mount owners are complaining about the lack of attention to Sony's legacy system.

09-07-2014, 02:16 PM - 1 Like   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
You get even more for free on APS-C.
But I think alot of users would prefer to have a crop mode on the FF camera, so they don't need to invest in both FF and APS-H.
The Canon 1D IV was the far better camera from IQ compared to offerings at the time (looking at Canon, since that is the technique to compare).

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-IV-versus-Canon-EOS-7D-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II___629_619_483

So when I take the sensor from the 645Z and cut out a 20 megapixel APS-H sized sensor it will beat the K-3 handsdown. Still the 645Z (Sony sensor knowledge) is the better sensor at IQ, but that camera would bring something good. That same does count for Canon.

On the cropping part. Well cropping in modern sportsphotography is just part of life. You almost never get to see the full image in a magazine as it was shot. You get a dramatic cut to give the reader the exitement that a magazine needs to bring to sell.

I know people (here at this forum) like the ability of the K-3 to crop and have good IQ. Maybe they should looking into the m4/3th system, since that is all they use.
09-07-2014, 03:50 PM - 2 Likes   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
...a whole lot of uninformed conjecture
Canon discontinued the APS-H line to consolidate 2 camera lines into one and save money. Most 1D owners are still 1D owners. They have not "upgraded" to the 1D X. Everyone who's ever owned a camera with an APS-H sensor loves the format.

A smaller sensor will always be faster than a larger one of the same generation using the same technology. It's just physics.

A larger sensor will always have better image quality than a smaller one of equivalent resolution in the same generation. Again, simple physics.

An APS-H sensor would have better IQ, low light performance, make better use of FF lenses, and give shallower depth of field than an APS-C sensor.

An APS-H sensor would be faster, lighter, provide more reach and result in a smaller camera than a FF sensor.

There's no downside here. None whatsoever. Just benefit. Add to that my second prediction of using sensor-shift to produce 4x the resolution in controlled environments, and you've got a simple-to-produce blockbuster camera with specs that most professional photographers would drool over.

edit: I've been erroneously referring to the Canon 1Ds when I meant to refer to the Canon 1D. I've gone back and fixed my earlier posts in this regard.

Last edited by GoremanX; 09-07-2014 at 05:07 PM.
09-07-2014, 05:14 PM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoremanX Quote

A smaller sensor will always be faster than a larger one of the same generation using the same technology. It's just physics.

.
What do you mean by "faster."
09-07-2014, 06:12 PM - 1 Like   #308
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The downside of Pentax releasing an APS-H is that it isn't FF.

And if released first, would delay FF another year...

But if that's what the new flagship product is, and came with pro service, I'd actually still consider buying it. I skipped the K-3, so I'm overdue

09-07-2014, 06:16 PM - 1 Like   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
What do you mean by "faster."
Sorry, I'm referring to mirror/shutter speed and responsiveness of sensor shift.
09-07-2014, 07:07 PM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoremanX Quote
An APS-H sensor would be faster, lighter, provide more reach and result in a smaller camera than a FF sensor.
Maybe optimistic, ha, but the APS-H is more in keeping with a crop at 4k, and less likely to be plagued by rolling shutter.
09-07-2014, 07:13 PM - 2 Likes   #311
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APS-H sensor? Who will make it? Canon for Pentax? I think not. There is another sensor maker who makes APS-H? I don't know. Special order for a relatively small number of cameras? At what price? Again, I don't think so.
09-07-2014, 09:56 PM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
APS-H sensor? Who will make it? Canon for Pentax? I think not. There is another sensor maker who makes APS-H? I don't know. Special order for a relatively small number of cameras? At what price? Again, I don't think so.
They could buy a dozen Kodak APS-H sensors from Leica, which probably is enough to cover the APS-H market for Pentax.

Last edited by Fogel70; 09-08-2014 at 07:10 AM.
09-08-2014, 05:03 AM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
An Interview with Pentax Executive Vice President Jim Malcolm - Reviewed.com Cameras

"So do you see Pentax in the next couple of years being a viable competitor to Canon and Nikon?"

"No doubt about it. I have no hesitation, in my mind and in my business direction, that in the future—whether it’s three years or five years out—that there will be three dominant imaging companies on a global basis and it will be Canon, Nikon, and Pentax/Ricoh.

The reason I say that with such confidence is if you really look at Ricoh, which is our parent, Ricoh as a company is more than half the size of Canon and is twice the size of Nikon. And they’re already a dominant imaging company. They have a global footprint, they have office automation, and obviously the printer business and copier business is their heart. So if you had to compare Ricoh as a company we’re much more similar to that of Canon than we are of Nikon."

Ricoh isn't Canon or Nikon, but that is the business model they are copying.
Is that a quote from the same Pentax fellow that stated that they are "touching base with a FF sensor supplier" and that "multiple working prototypes are being tested"?
09-08-2014, 05:23 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
APS-H sensor? Who will make it? Canon for Pentax? I think not. There is another sensor maker who makes APS-H? I don't know. Special order for a relatively small number of cameras? At what price? Again, I don't think so.
Practical constraints are easily forgotten when "the best plan ever" is made on internet forums Sensor availability is such a practical constraint.
And I'll simply ignore the suggestion to use a 2008 Kodak sensor (which most likely isn't made anymore). What would be needed is a sensor:
- better than APS-C
- cheaper than FF (which also means: made in high enough quantities - Pentax alone can't do it
And that's only thinking about an isolated product, not about a product line. Constant supply of high quality APS-H sensors? A new lens line? Marketing having to explain why Pentax' best K-mount cameras are using smaller sensors than the competition?
09-08-2014, 05:34 AM   #315
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Canon and Nikon likely cannot start a serious high-end mirrorless line until they have licked every single problem associated with mirrorless, especially AF and tracking but also EVF quality and battery life. Until they do that no one would ever trade in their existing gear unless they had other reasons like weight and size. When that happens, maybe Pentax will do something too. But there again, maybe they won't.
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