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09-18-2014, 08:10 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Shooters might just buy another single-body option that does both well.
Well then incorporate the same video features in both models. No need to "cripple" the mirrored model.

09-18-2014, 08:19 AM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That would be fine.
Not from Ricoh's perspective!

---------- Post added 09-18-14 at 09:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Well then incorporate the same video features in both models. No need to "cripple" the mirrored model.
I agree, but you seemed to be agreeing with the "Jr video" suggestion as a good idea - my point was I'm not sure that it would be (although it's interesting,) because a customer given a choice might bypass both models and buy from another manufacturer who offered both in the same body.

Last edited by jsherman999; 09-18-2014 at 08:34 AM.
09-18-2014, 08:39 AM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I agree, but you seemed to be agreeing with the "Jr video" suggestion as a good idea - my point was I'm not sure that it would be (although it's interesting,) because a customer given a choice might bypass both models and buy from another manufacturer who offered both in the same body.
You made a good point so I changed my mind.

Doesn't happen often on the Internet.
09-18-2014, 09:11 AM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
Dude, you're talking me into this camera.
Hahaha. Well, it might still be a paper tiger, but with these specifications, how much can they get wrong? They have put some effort into it, so hopefully they won't screw up everything by a few bad decisions.


Maybe the JPEG engine of the camera is not good, but in the $1500 price range... does anyone shoot JPEG? For all I care the camera doesn't need to have JPEG at all.


@Tan68: I've proposed before to make a mirrorless APS-C camera with a speed booster built in, that can be shifted into the light path. That way you could have a camera that does both, FF and APS-C. I doubt it would be cheaper than a real FF camera, but it has the advantage of crop without losing resolution. All FF lenses become 2 lenses, essentially.


I'd like to see them make a K mount mirrorless with a much shorter flange distance. Otherwise identical, including screw drive AF motor. An adapter would simply be a bit of metal with a metal shaft that can connect the motor to the lens. Or, if the motor is in the adapter, maybe other adapters can be made that will let you adapt other brands? The problem would be that Pentax itself would never make a F mount adapter for example, and third party manufacturers would not do it unless there's a big enough market... this is more than just cutting a bit of metal...


Mirrors, for the time being, do have advantages, mostly in terms of lag. The Samsung claims to cut that down to barely there, but we'll have to see. It also has advantages in terms of battery life. So... I can see the point of having 2 very similar cameras (in terms of sensor, processor, display, software etc.) that have a different body, one mirrorless and one with mirror. Just that Pentax may not be the right brand for that, just in terms of volume.


2 cameras, one for video and one for stills doesn't seem like a very good idea. They can do 2 versions, but the abilities should not be limited. i.e. the video version should be as good as possible for stills, within the limitations of the body (i.e. no mirror, thus a bit of lag in the viewfinder that can't be avoided), and the stills version should have all the video functionality that is financially viable (I don't expect it to have XLR audio inputs etc., but it should still have video, and if the same processor is used the same functions, as far as possible). Users who don't want to use video at all can deactivate it in the menu, and won't see video again. Buttons dedicated to video may be used for other purposes then. The video version would have to be wildly different, i.e. C300, FS7, F55, that sort of thing. A body that was meant to be used in video productions from the get go, with the right controls, mounts and grips, audio inputs etc. THEN that would make sense. Not sure if this is the market Pentax would really be going after though (then again, it's a profitable market).


I doubt Pentax would be anywhere near as daring, innovative, ... to do any of these things. Sony? Panasonic? Samsung? Olympus? Yes. Pentax? No. Never.

09-18-2014, 09:20 AM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Hahaha. Well, it might still be a paper tiger, but with these specifications, how much can they get wrong? They have put some effort into it, so hopefully they won't screw up everything by a few bad decisions.
Well, I would like to see some tests on the rolling shutter, and I'd like to know what the crop is at 4k.
09-18-2014, 09:56 AM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tan68 Quote
Nikonos V underwater camera
Viewfinder, so an ILC

While hunting this, I learned there was an AF & SLR version, Nikonos RS built in 1992.
The Nikonos V for 50m and the RS for 100m

Anyway, is there room in there to mount a speed-thing and still have even an APS-C mirror clear it...
No. Speed Boosters only work when you're doing something like taking a DSLR lens and mounting it on a mirrorless, so there's room for the optics. The Nikonos V has a very short (rangefinder length) register distance, therefore there's no room to stuff in the telecompressor optics even on a mirrorless body.

If you want a digital Nikonos V, buy a Sony A7 and a dive case with a port for Nikonos optics. One of the dive case companies makes one.
09-18-2014, 10:04 AM - 1 Like   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
Well, I would like to see some tests on the rolling shutter, and I'd like to know what the crop is at 4k.
According to Andrew Reid from EOSHD (and IIRC) the rolling shutter depends on which prototype you are actually trying... on some it is bad, on others it's not. I guess the final version will be rather reasonable then. The camera is due to come out in autumn, so there is still some time to finalize the firmware.


No crop for 4K, though the camera does have the limitation of only being capable of full sensor readout at 30 fps, higher than that there will be a reduction in image quality. But to me 30 fps is perfectly fine, I don't need more.


http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/photokina-report-day-1-samsung-nx1-4k-mirrorless-camera-h-265/
09-18-2014, 10:38 AM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
You made a good point so I changed my mind.

Doesn't happen often on the Internet.
OK - I'm in. And I'm an Old Dog . . . . .

09-18-2014, 10:52 AM   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
According to Andrew Reid from EOSHD (and IIRC) the rolling shutter depends on which prototype you are actually trying... on some it is bad, on others it's not. I guess the final version will be rather reasonable then. The camera is due to come out in autumn, so there is still some time to finalize the firmware.


No crop for 4K, though the camera does have the limitation of only being capable of full sensor readout at 30 fps, higher than that there will be a reduction in image quality. But to me 30 fps is perfectly fine, I don't need more.
Well, all of that is great. 30 fps is fine. Good heavens.
09-18-2014, 11:05 AM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@Tan68: I've proposed before to make a mirrorless APS-C camera with a speed booster built in, that can be shifted into the light path. That way you could have a camera that does both, FF and APS-C. I doubt it would be cheaper than a real FF camera, but it has the advantage of crop without losing resolution. All FF lenses become 2 lenses, essentially.
Yeah, it's called a NEX with a speed booster. You're not going to be able to reliably build something that shifts into the light path, and it adds bulk. An adapter that goes on a mount (and another adapter with no optics) is a simpler solution. That isn't necessarily any more expensive than building it as a single unit - it's mass production that makes things cheap, not the fact that they're integrated.

QuoteQuote:
I'd like to see them make a K mount mirrorless with a much shorter flange distance. Otherwise identical, including screw drive AF motor. An adapter would simply be a bit of metal with a metal shaft that can connect the motor to the lens. Or, if the motor is in the adapter, maybe other adapters can be made that will let you adapt other brands? The problem would be that Pentax itself would never make a F mount adapter for example, and third party manufacturers would not do it unless there's a big enough market... this is more than just cutting a bit of metal...
Sure, pass-through adapters would be possible within a brand. You'd just have electrical contacts that carry the same pin-outs forward. That's definitely the easiest.

Mixing between brands is tricky. Adapting electronic connections may be possible. Assuming it can be done, you need to reverse-engineer the AF protocols and put a chip into your adapter to translate between the different systems and their control signals. For a real-world example of this, look at the Metabones NEX->EOS Speed Booster/Adapter. It's not the world's fastest autofocus, but it works.

Dealing with mechanical control signals - like aperture reading and stopdown - is much more difficult, and that's what you'd need to do to make Nikon F lenses work properly.
09-18-2014, 01:00 PM - 1 Like   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
Yeah, it's called a NEX with a speed booster. You're not going to be able to reliably build something that shifts into the light path, and it adds bulk. An adapter that goes on a mount (and another adapter with no optics) is a simpler solution. That isn't necessarily any more expensive than building it as a single unit - it's mass production that makes things cheap, not the fact that they're integrated.



Sure, pass-through adapters would be possible within a brand. You'd just have electrical contacts that carry the same pin-outs forward. That's definitely the easiest.

Mixing between brands is tricky. Adapting electronic connections may be possible. Assuming it can be done, you need to reverse-engineer the AF protocols and put a chip into your adapter to translate between the different systems and their control signals. For a real-world example of this, look at the Metabones NEX->EOS Speed Booster/Adapter. It's not the world's fastest autofocus, but it works.

Dealing with mechanical control signals - like aperture reading and stopdown - is much more difficult, and that's what you'd need to do to make Nikon F lenses work properly.
The advantage would not be cost, but convenience and speed. I don't want to carry lots of adapters with me, and swap them out. This way you'd wait maybe a second or two and you went from a 75mm to a 50mm that is faster, for example, instead of having to take off the lens, take off the adapter, change the adapter, put it on the lens and then both on the body. Easily a minute, and sometimes impossible or too dangerous to do (imagine standing in a crowd that may bump into you, or leave you no space, and doing everything single handed perhaps...).


You could replicate the mechanical couplings if you provide enough power to the adapter... and enough space around the mount. But it won't be easy for sure.
09-19-2014, 12:20 AM - 1 Like   #387
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So, Pentax doesn't want to give us any FF or any fast lenses, so now we're hoping for a camera with an integraded speedbooster that internally shifts back and forth in front of the sensor? Just so our slow long (legacy) lenses can finally act as fast wide primes? That seems many times more of an engineering nightmare and an even worse busniness case then just an FF camera and some fast primes.

Last edited by Clavius; 09-19-2014 at 12:32 AM.
09-19-2014, 08:56 AM   #388
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One of the proposed differences is to make the camera suitable for work at depth
This would similar to the Nikonos concept. Both rangefinder and SLR type

Another proposed difference is to actually make the camera APS-C but with speedbooster
(very different from FF, I guess but still somehow related)
I don't think there would be much cost difference..?
If similar cost, why not just go with FF, itself

QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
No. Speed Boosters only work when you're doing something like taking a DSLR lens and mounting it on a mirrorless, so there's room for the optics. The Nikonos V has a very short (rangefinder length) register distance, therefore there's no room to stuff in the telecompressor optics even on a mirrorless body.

If you want a digital Nikonos V, buy a Sony A7 and a dive case with a port for Nikonos optics. One of the dive case companies makes one.
I suppose the same could be made for the Pentax FF that is suitable for work at depth. Forgo the innate ability and sell a housing for it.
09-19-2014, 10:26 AM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tan68 Quote
One of the proposed differences is to make the camera suitable for work at depth
This would similar to the Nikonos concept. Both rangefinder and SLR type

Another proposed difference is to actually make the camera APS-C but with speedbooster
(very different from FF, I guess but still somehow related)
I don't think there would be much cost difference..?
If similar cost, why not just go with FF, itself
You didn't read what I just posted. Against: you cannot make rangefinder lenses like the Nikonos-V work on a DSLR, nor can you make them work with a Speed Booster. It is not physically possible given the register distance. If you want full frame FoV from those lenses, a full frame sensor on a mirrorless camera is the only physically possible option.

Making an entirely new underwater camera to use the Nikonos RS lenses is crazy talk as well. They're rather expensive lenses, so they're not desirable to adapt, it makes no sense from the user side of things. Pentax wouldn't be able to make money selling lenses unless they started designing and producing them themselves, a task at which Pentax has absolutely no past history. And dive cameras and dive lenses are an incredibly niche market that makes no sense for Pentax to enter. It makes no sense on either side of the equation, building or buying cameras.

The only way Nikonos-RS lenses would be even vaguely plausible is a Metabones-like MILC->DSLR adapter that converts between different systems' AF protocols. Which could include a speed booster, given. But if you have a MILC then you could just directly mount the Nikonos-V water-contact lenses instead, which are relatively cheap and plentiful. This niche is already filled by the A7 (FF) and NEX (APS-C), but I suppose Pentax could try to enter it as well.

QuoteQuote:
I suppose the same could be made for the Pentax FF that is suitable for work at depth. Forgo the innate ability and sell a housing for it.
The standard solution is a dive case, yeah.

Dive cameras are an incredibly niche product that really makes very little sense as an integrated product. Nowadays it's sold as the as two separate parts. Ikelite and friends make the financials work on the dive case (ka-ching, that'll be $3000), the camera companies make the financials work on the camera, everyone goes home happy.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 09-19-2014 at 10:56 AM.
09-20-2014, 08:02 AM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
You didn't read what I just posted. ....
Paul...
I did read what you wrote.

I wrote that the proposal for dive camera had been made by someone else and not me.
Hunt back up the thread and find that person to spend some time with :^)

The second proposal was for speed booster. This was made separate from the proposal from dive camera.

My comments were to address both proposals individually and not to meld them as you have... I think both proposals are a bit of a reach.

Believing a rangefinder Nikonos lens could be used on a K mount camera (or other SLR..) is odd. You included some ideas about speedbooster on a Nikonos..? Where did you get that idea from :^)
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