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10-02-2014, 11:48 AM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Sony use a completly different type of tech for sensor stabilization, which is a bit more compact than what Pentax use.
Does anyone know if the A99 has the same SR issues, or similar SR issues?

10-02-2014, 11:49 AM   #422
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
As far as a 'slightly cropped' Sensor - I meant a standard FF sensor from which a small part of the image circle is electronically trimmed to allow a more compact area for sensor movement - I'm hypothesizing 2mm or something per dimension..
Cropping the image don't change the amount of movement the sensor have to make. Limiting the movement would only make it less effective (fewer stops of SR).

Well, it would be possible if the crop dynamically moved over the sensor depending on what direction the sensor moves. But I'm not sure it would be possible to know exactly what part of viewfinder that would en up on the image.
10-02-2014, 11:50 AM   #423
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
For the last 5 or so posters - MILC, EVF and a smaller than FF sensor are NOT options for this discussion. Until they tell us otherwise Ricoh is committed to 100% Optical Viewfinder with a minimum of .95x magnification. That, along with WR and SR are brand-identity points. We're discussing a traditional, mirrored, glass-prism OVF dSLR with a 36x24 sensor installed - and the usual Pentax selling points.
Haha, so are you Product Engineering Lead at Ricoh or some other person who would have the authority to make this claim? Where is the "brand identity" 100% optical VF in the K-01 and so on?

I mean, you're probably correct based on how hard Pentax has focused on the plain-jane DSLR body in the face of every other manufacturer finding some innovative niche to sell in. But there have been exceptions, and Ricoh hasn't said anything official so far. No, your uncle who works at Nintendo (or Pentax) doesn't count as an official source, and certainly not as an official source with official feature lists...

When there's an actual non-vaporware product that's getting shown at Photokina then maybe we can be a bit more certain about such things. Right now there's significant engineering and marketing challenges to be overcome.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 10-02-2014 at 11:58 AM.
10-02-2014, 12:09 PM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Cropping the image don't change the amount of movement the sensor have to make. Limiting the movement would only make it less effective (fewer stops of SR).
Does the sensor move in software SR? Really? I mean, aren't we a little presumptive to assume that Pentax will go back to a mechanical SR? Aren't we now talking three cameras back? Or is the KS1 mechanical SR?

10-02-2014, 12:12 PM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
and Ricoh hasn't said anything official so far.
Really? IIRC at the time of the K-30 (essentially a K-01 with a viewfinder and a mirror) Pentax Japan product manager (I think in an Imaging Resource interview) officially said they were committed to 100% optical viewfinders on all their K-mount dSLR's.

Perhaps my memory is incorrect - but a larger-than-the competition viewfinder is a Pentax brand-identity factor - even dpreview says so.
10-02-2014, 12:13 PM - 1 Like   #426
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
Does the sensor move in software SR? Really? I mean, aren't we a little presumptive to assume that Pentax will go back to a mechanical SR? Aren't we now talking three cameras back? Or is the KS1 mechanical SR?
All the mirrored cameras are mechanical SR for still images. Q is mechanical SR for still. Video on some models employs digital image stabilization.

Last edited by monochrome; 10-02-2014 at 12:19 PM.
10-02-2014, 12:14 PM - 1 Like   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
Does the sensor move in software SR? Really? I mean, aren't we a little presumptive to assume that Pentax will go back to a mechanical SR? Aren't we now talking three cameras back? Or is the KS1 mechanical SR?
"Software SR" only works for video. where the shifting of pixels can be done between each captured frame.
10-02-2014, 12:28 PM - 1 Like   #428
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
Sorry, I don't buy this. The Sony A99 is only 110mm tall in total, including a 1.3cm electronic viewfinder. That leaves a total height of ~100mm for the rest of the camera - including sensor, frame, moldings, etc. I'd believe 60mm or so in height, but not 80mm.

Overall the A99, with a full-frame SR sensor, is roughly the same size as the K-3. It might get a bit larger if you designed a true DSLR instead of an EVF SLT type camera of course.
Answering the question stated:

It could be a little bit bigger!
People would buy the Pentax FF even if it is 2-3 cm taller(height) and plus 2 cm wide, who exactly would care about that? Even if it comes in a format similar to Canon 1D or Nikon D4S people would run for it.

And we have an equivalent to the desired specs (when talking about Size and a FF Sensor with SR) --> sony's A900 it is app. 156,3 116,9 81,9 mm.
And yes; I could live with a Pentax FF that has the same or approximately the same measures as the A900.
In the contrary! There are people who praise the handling of the pentax, but who want to rest their little finger on the camera body but they just can't. Neither on the K-5 or on the K-30... We could even pull some Nikonian-Candidates over to the RICOH-PENTAX brand back again with that larger body and the classical KISS handling of the K-5II(Button and element aligning just make so much sense on this great camera body.)
I just imagine my K-5II with the exact same button aligning but app. 3cm bigger (width and also height) and with a FF SR sensor and i would just say WOW. I wanna have that, because it is easy to utilise. And changing settings on this premium body goes lightning fast. The only advantage on the K-3 body that i see, is that you don't have to press down a button on the mode dial.
Ah. Yes, maybe the AF switch lever (mid focus, Sel or Auto) shoud point to the right instead of pointing towards the screen. Besides those odds and ends i find the K-5(II) the more perfect design for full frame.

The handling beats Canon and Nikon DSLRs in just every way. I recently tried some of those. But every time i have Canikon in my hands, I am reminded to that catchy song "wicked, wicked wonderland..." and i think: "How the AF works is really cool, but it just looks and feels so goddamn tacky-swanky."



AND PLEASE RICOH!
Locking Pictures !!!! We really do not need an extra lock button, but you should finally implement locking the pictures in review mode when pressing the AE-L button.
Because no one needs the AE-L button in Review or Play-Mode for anything else. It should just lock the picture i am reviewing on my display when i press it instead of throwing me out of review mode or doing nothing.(on K-30 it throws you out of review mode, on K-5II it exactly does nothing when pressed while reviewing a pic.)

10-02-2014, 12:46 PM   #429
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QuoteQuote:
People would buy the Pentax FF even if it is 2-3 cm taller(height) and plus 2 cm wide, who exactly would care about that? Even if it comes in a format similar to Canon 1D or Nikon D4S people would run for it.
Those of us who buy Pentax for it's size wouldn't buy it that's who. And trust me, there are a lot of us. We wouldn't run for it, we'd run from it. I like the size of my ME, which is full frame. Add 10mm for SR.. and it's the size of my K-5.

Some of us suspect the size of 1Ds etc have more to do with the need to impress your rich uncle than any photographic necessity.
10-02-2014, 01:04 PM   #430
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I think it'll be priced very competitively, considering even the medium-format Pentax cameras are priced many times cheaper than the other bad boys in the market.
10-02-2014, 01:09 PM   #431
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Good price-small footprint, don't cater to the special interest groups (widest DoF, fastest AF, best Low Light performance [or some would say, best bad light performance]), best camera for ƒ1.8 to ƒ32 specializing in ƒ4 to ƒ16 ... the Pentax formula.

When it comes out, check and see if I'm right.
10-02-2014, 01:10 PM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by crazyfrog89 Quote
I think it'll be priced very competitively, considering even the medium-format Pentax cameras are priced many times cheaper than the other bad boys in the market.
The problem is that in the FF segment Pentax would be equivalent of the other bad boys compared to Canikon.
Pentax has the advantage of economies of scale in MF segment, but in FF segment it's Canikon that has it.
10-02-2014, 05:12 PM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by crazyfrog89 Quote
I think it'll be priced very competitively, considering even the medium-format Pentax cameras are priced many times cheaper than the other bad boys in the market.
The other bad boys in the MF format market charge a lot because they can. They cater to a very special audience who has no problem spending $30000 on a camera, because they'll make back that money. Pentax isn't such a household name in that business and thus needs to do a (downgraded) camera that is not as profitable... but still profitable enough.


In the FF segment though Pentax can sell maybe 10 cameras for every 500 Canon sells, guess who has better economies of scale.


I wouldn't want a bigger camera than my K-5. The K-5 is the limit, as far as weight and size goes.


Forget about electronic SR, it works awfully bad for video, and it can't work for stills. At least at this point... Photoshop CC has that feature AFAIK, and it works, sort of, but the processing power needed is too high. What is needed is mechanical SR.


Don't forget that a Canon shooter is very used to his camera, and thinks it makes sense. If you pull him to Pentax he will be confused. Same with Nikon. Yes, I think it is easier to learn a Pentax than either of the alternatives, and for the switcher it wouldn't take too much time either, but one can clearly use a Canon for professional work.
10-03-2014, 07:54 AM   #434
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with that logic they shouldn't be able to be profitable in aps-c either

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote


In the FF segment though Pentax can sell maybe 10 cameras for every 500 Canon sells, guess who has better economies of scale.


In aps-c it's closer to 10:1, and in that space the POS** and marketing advantage (ie, everyone swayed by what they see on the shelf at Target and what Ashton Kutcher etc are seen shooting in commercials) to buy is more effective than it would be 1 tier up. So we shouldn't expect any less than aps-c's 10:1 ratio, and probably better.

Keep in mind: The same economies of scale differences are in affect in aps-c, and Pentax is still profitable there while able to offer product at similar prices. And if the recent comments from Pentax-Europe reps are accurate, they don't see enough of an economy-of-scale barrier to stop full development of FF (unless they're completely lying )

In other words, they wouldn't waste any significant $ developing something if they knew economies of scale and sales ratios would make it non-feasible anyway.

Also, don't look for the majority of K-FF buyers in the CaNikon 'switch' camp - they will probably mostly be coming from manufacturers that don't currently offer a FF upgrade path, like Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji, Samsung, and Pentax. The few 'current-FF switchers' who do come from CaNikon will probably come when it's upgrade time for their camera, they were dissatisfied with their current camera or Pentax has some feature they love, and if then only if they don't already have a huge (to them) investment in lenses.

** it occurs to me that this acronym can have two meanings in context here, as in "The Canon POS being sold at the POS."
.

Last edited by jsherman999; 10-03-2014 at 08:36 AM.
10-03-2014, 08:17 AM - 1 Like   #435
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The Pentax advantage is that so many of us were 35x24 shooters for years. To this day some of my favourite images were taken on 35x24 cameras, and some of them wouldn't be the same shot in APS-c. Even for folks like me who are essentially sitting on the fence, and feel we can get along without FF want to see what they come out with. There is probably more latent understanding of FF in the Pentax community than anywhere else just because, we don't have one, and because we grew up with it. I expect when Pentax releases their first FF, the results will surprise some. And there are a lot of us who wouldn't say we'll buy one, who will if what is offered suits us.

As Jay points out, the Canikon market is sewed up. If I'm my buddy Brian with his D800 and 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200, and Pentax comes out with an FF, why would i care? Or If I'm a sports shooter with my long lens with built in 2x converter available at the flip of a switch. Pentax releasing an FF doesn't make them competitors of Nikon or Canon. It makes them the producers of an FF body to go with the Pentax philosophy, small, lightweight, rugged and built for compromise lenses that are centre sharp and often edge soft, but extremely small, light weight and rugged. Pentax is going to make an FF to sell to the Pentax demographic, which is different from the Canon or Nikon demographic. If at some point they decide to compete with the big boys, they have some serious work to do.

My biggest fear with the Pentax FF is that under Ricoh's guidance they decide to take on the big boys, and ditch their demographic. While it would be exciting to some, most of us who shoot pentax do so because we are in tune with their philosophy. If they become Canikon clones, well I could have switched to the Canikon model whenever I wanted. It wouldn't be any different than switching brands...
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