Originally posted by jsherman999 In aps-c it's closer to 10:1, and in that space the POS** and marketing advantage (ie, everyone swayed by what they see on the shelf at Target and what Ashton Kutcher etc are seen shooting in commercials) to buy is more effective than it would be 1 tier up. So we shouldn't expect any less than aps-c's 10:1 ratio, and probably better.
Keep in mind: The same economies of scale differences are in affect in aps-c, and Pentax is still profitable there while able to offer product at similar prices. And if the recent comments from Pentax-Europe reps are accurate, they don't see enough of an economy-of-scale barrier to stop full development of FF (unless they're completely lying
)
In other words, they wouldn't waste any significant $ developing something if they knew economies of scale and sales ratios would make it non-feasible anyway.
Also, don't look for the majority of K-FF buyers in the CaNikon 'switch' camp - they will probably mostly be coming from manufacturers that don't currently offer a FF upgrade path, like Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji, Samsung, and Pentax. The few 'current-FF switchers' who do come from CaNikon will probably come when it's upgrade time for their camera, they were dissatisfied with their current camera or Pentax has some feature they love, and if then only if they don't already have a huge (to them) investment in lenses.
** it occurs to me that this acronym can have two meanings in context here, as in "
The Canon POS being sold at the POS."
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That is very, very optimistic. The APS-C market is in general a bigger one, thus even though Pentax is maybe 1:10 smaller that is still a lot of cameras. The FF segment though is a lot smaller though, thus being 1:10 or even 1:5 may not be big enough. And usually people who are in the market for FF already have many lenses (and the more lenses you have, the less likely you're to switch brand, no matter how tempting (and a Pentax FF that is as many want here is simply not tempting enough). Also, in the FF segment you're often aiming for professional users, and professional users are more and more forced into doing stills AND video if they want to stay in business. Video is an area Pentax is particularly bad at, and which they seem to have no intention on improving. The only one who is as uninterested in improving their video functionality is Canon, and that's because they can afford to do so, and don't want to hurt the sales of their big cinema cameras.
If you're a Panasonic, Fuji, or Olympus shooter, you probably value size a lot, and you're used to mirrorless cameras. Unless they really don't like mirrorless, why would they want to switch back to a mirror? There's a reason why they went mirrorless. Also, why wouldn't they buy a Sony A7, if they want FF? They can remain mirrorless, and get a compact body with a large sensor. A friend of mine went from APS-C Nikon to Panasonic mFT, and he could not be happier. There's no way he would ever switch to a FF DSLR.
Also, if you're a Panasonic shooter, you're probably into video. Which, again, means Pentax is not of any interest.
What are the traditional strengths of a Pentax? Size, weather resistance, usability, build quality, size of the viewfinder for it's price class, SR. If they are to compete with other FF DSLRs (namely Canon and Nikon):
Size and weight... how much smaller can they make it? Can they get smaller and lighter than their competitors without sacrificing SR? Nikon is using carbon fibre these days, can Pentax? If not, are they able to compete?
Weather resistance... in the FF segment not too uncommon.
Build quality... FF DSLRs are tanks. Pentax might compete, but be significantly better?
Size of the viewfinder for the price class... well, it's big in a FF camera. How much bigger could they make it? Would it be of an advantage? Keep in mind that FF cameras aren't meant to save every single cent, they get good viewfinders, unlike entry level Canikons. Canikon does have good APS-C viewfinders in their top of the line APS-C cameras, and they can IIRC compete with what Pentax has to offer (Pentax only shines compared to entry level cameras from the other brands!).
Usability... plenty of professional users get along just fine with a Canikon. Pentax may be easier to learn, but I'm afraid that might not be such a big draw to lifetime Canikon users who know how their cameras are used.
SR... can they do it, without sacrificing size? A bigger sensor also means more mass, meaning moving the sensor around will be harder. Also, without SR in video to me SR is a drawback. I'd rather have a Nikon without SR than a Pentax with SR, if I can't use the built in SR in video (at least with Nikon I can use stabilized lenses).
So it seems questionable if Pentax can even better those brands by a reasonable margin, and then Canon has Magic Lantern, which gives good video quality and features if needed, and Nikon's new cameras (D5300, D750 and D810) produce pretty great quality video, as long as you're willing to live without 4K. Pentax is nowhere even close to that. So even if we assume that Panasonic etc. users want to switch to a FF DSLR, why on earth would they pick a Pentax?! Unless they are a bunch of hipsters and want a camera that no one else has.
The idea of a Pentax FF camera being squarely aimed at Pentax enthusiasts seems like a bad idea to me. Star Trek 2009 needed to appeal to a wider audience than just Star Trek fans (though numberous they are) to make financial sense. Likewise, the Pentax user base is pretty small, and a small portion of that has interest in a FF Pentax. A part that makes a Pentax a Pentax (at least for me) also means it can never be a FF camera, at least as long as it has a mirror. And without mirror I just don't think Pentax has the experience and knowledge and technology to make it really competitive.
I doubt Pentax will go all in with MILC. They have shown no sign whatsoever that they are interested in doing so. The K-01 was hindered by that K-mount (too conservative thinking on Pentax' side), the Q is not a serious competitor in the MILC market. And there was a time to enter the MILC market, and IMHO that might already have passed. I doubt Pentax is technically able to compete with Panasonic, Sony, Samsung and perhaps Olympus. Panasonic, Sony and Samsung are really good at doing video, and Olympus is trying hard if the rumors are true (Olympus cameras in the hands of Hollywood filmmakers to test and give feedback on Olympus cameras, obviously in an attempt to cater to the filmmaking community. In contrast Pentax has again and again shown that they have no clue about filmmakers, even when they try to cater to that audience (why else would the K-3 have an headphone out?)). Sony and Samsung are also producing sensors, and supply brands like Pentax. However they will also keep the latest and greatest to themselves if they think that benefits them... Sony has already said that the A7S sensor stays with them for now, and I expect Samsung to do the same with the NX-1 sensor. So Sony and Samsung will stay a step ahead of Pentax (unless Toshiba is able to release something competitive). Keep in mind that both Sony and Samsung are also big in the smartphone camera module business, and I wouldn't be surprised if they gain a lot of high tech know how through that. BSI for example is a technology first developed for smartphone cameras, and it's now slowly coming to larger sensors. Toshiba, i think, is not so big in that market... or at least it doesn't seem to supply the modules that high end phones use.
Pentax has also time and time again shown they don't understand video, they don't know how people use video or that they want/are forced to use it. Pentax employees seem to be photographers, which explains why their cameras are so great to use for photography, but no one there seems to shoot videos, at least not at a professional level. It is as if they think people who want to use video on their DSLR want to replace their super convenient camcorder that does everything automatically, without much control from the user over the picture. The last interview Adam did with Pentax is very telling: The K-3 has a headphone out, which is a pretty nice feature giving you the chance to monitor the audio. People who do so would probably use an external microphone, because any built in one is useless. Yet Pentax says SR is deactivated during video because of the noise the SR system makes... but you only hear that through the internal microphone, which no one who cares about good sound quality would even consider using, and if you don't care about sound quality, you wouldn't notice or care anyway. Instead they offer electronic SR, which has the disadvantage of absolutely destroying the video. It makes the videos look awful, and anyone at Pentax should have noticed, had they tried it even once. If the camera would release an image this bad in stills mode (say for example vertical lines don't stay straight when you shoot a photo, they wobble left and right), Pentax would have done everything to fight that, because they had noticed it and found it unacceptable. They would have removed the feature causing this. Nikon also has full access to the electronic stabilization Pentax has, they could flick a switch in their software and have electronic SR. It's in the processor. But they don't use it. Tried it, I guess, laughed, shook their heads and deactivated it again.
--> I think Pentax is kind of doomed. They can't compete in the FF market, because I really doubt they can release a product that would attract a big enough number of buyers. It would need to be a significantly better product than anything Canikon can offer to make up for disadvantages like lens lineup, and I doubt they can even release something that is better than a D750 for example. They can't compete with the top of the line MILC cameras from other brands, because technically they are lightyears ahead of Pentax, and they are also the suppliers Pentax depends on, so they can keep Pentax at a distance. APS-C will shrink, as MILC cameras get better and better. I don't see any reason apart from lens lineup to buy any APS-C camera over a Samsung NX-1, provided that the NX-1 can deliver on it's promise and is easy to use (I have my doubts, unfortunately). A decent part of the problem is that they don't understand video, nor show any intention in doing much to improve it/understand how people use it.
This is a pretty good video. While it addresses Canon and Nikon it IMHO also can be applied to Pentax, which is mostly following Canon and Nikon with a slight twist. It also comes from a camera store that knows what people going into the store actually want.