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10-11-2014, 01:44 AM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@patarok: I've had massive problems with the ginormous K-5 AF points. I usually only use the center one, and recompose, but it's useless, really. I could be focusing on ANYTHING that is roughly in the center area of the image. Often it's focusing on what is behind my motive, even though the red dot is clearly covering the motive. It's a joke. Having more, and much much smaller focus points, would, if the exact one the camera picked is marked, be extremely helpful. Plus it would help people who want to do focus tracking, and it also covers a much larger area of the sensor, 90% IIRC. Of course that's helpful!
FTF. This is not twitter.

The samsung nx1 is no FF.

Again. This thread is not for samsung ads and about specs speculation. I saw the camera in action. No, it does not live up to the specs.
(Maybe a firmware problem, but i really don't care, because this thread actually is about the next Pentax FF.)
If you are not able to use your K-5 with mid-focus, i am pretty sure you should better switch to point and shoot cameras.("or read the next paragraphs carefully)
I own a K-5II and i am focusing fast as hell with mid-af.
I don't really know what it is about with you not getting "focus" but, you should maybe consider that it is on your side.
Keep in mind, when working with mid-focus and AF button press to hold the focus point, you should not move your camera. When working with the aperture wide open, the AF layer is not very deep.
My good guess is, that you move your camera slightly towards the object you want to focus, before you completely press down the shutter release button.
Many people tend to do so. (Those moments are often out of perception.)

Composure before Exposure.
link:
http://improvephotography.com/1365/how-to-properly-hold-a-dslr-camera/
There is more on the internet how to hold your camera right and keep your stand.


If you do not understand DOF. Google is your friend. And keep in mind, with the aperture wide open, the focus "layer" (i call it like that, because it helps my imagination whilst shooting) is really, REALLY T H I N.
250 Af-point hither or tither, when moving the camera, after it focused, and before/whilst pressing the shutter release button down completely will lead to out of focus results on EVERY camera. You can go and hand 50.000Dollars over to your photo-equipment-dealer, but that won't help in such cases.
PLZ, don't be too nitpicky with my words, i am no native english tongue.


Besides that, the K-5II that i own: It has been dropped, then it fell down about 3.5-4m and it is still focusing correctly.(Do not try that at home! There is no guarantee on that)

QuoteOriginally posted by RogerD_AZ Quote
While I think it's much too soon due to cost, a three layer sensor (aka Foveon style) would (could) be the next significant improvement in image quality.

But, that would be groundbreaking if at an affordable cost unlike Sigma's very expensive and rather featureless camera.

...Roger D
Though, that was a very constructive-minded posting, but Foveon... NO! I often also dream about a proper Foveon in the next Pentax, but the tech isn't mature yet.
I visited Photokina this year, and tested SIGMA's Foveon Cameras up to the latest, DP Quattro. I have to admit, it is indeed getting better. But still there is slight color noise already at ISO 800. I guess above ISO 800 even some cheap walmart point'n'shoot digicam could compete.


So dear Samsung freelancers, and all real Pentaxians. Let me remind you to the title of this thread AGAIN:

What could be 'different' about Pentax-FF?
(I am pretty sure, there are other threads, about what is good on other-brand cameras)


Last edited by patarok; 10-11-2014 at 07:14 AM.
10-11-2014, 03:30 AM - 1 Like   #542
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I'd like to have some of that Samsung tech in a Pentax. Not in a Samsung, but in a Pentax. What's wrong with that? And most of my suggestions do apply to a Pentax, and I do want these things realized in a Pentax, not a Samsung. But if Samsung has a superior image processor, or a superior (at least on paper) sensor, then that's what I want in the Pentax.


I guess you've been to Photokina, well, those were preproduction cameras, so we'll have to see for the final camera they'll bring to market.


To give an example: 50mm 1.8, stopped down to something like 2.5 or 2.8. Photo of a group of people. I press the AF button while aiming at the head of one of them (cause that's where I see plenty of contrast). The focus ends up on the background. The group may be 4 meters from me, the background is more like 50 meters away. Why on earth did it focus on the background? Simple, the AF area for the center focus point is huge. I'm not the only one complaining. As I kind of expected I also did a few shots where I manually focused. And guess what... spot on. I think I read somewhere that the K-3 (and perhaps K-5 II) sensor is better, but the K-5 is rather useless. But still, you can improve on good. So:


Give me a PENTAX, APS-C or FF, that has a BSI sensor with small PDAF sensors spread across the whole sensor, with an extra amount in the center area. Since such a camera has an EVF, it's no problem to have only the exact AF sensor that got focus marked down (or maybe several AF sensors). So I can set the camera to center AF, and it draws a rectangle of the sensors that are being used. I can define the size of that rectangle, i.e. if I want to have the camera focus on anything that is generally in the center, or to only look for focus in a very narrow area. When I focus it'll look for the closest thing in that area (alternatively the biggest area).


There can also be a portrait AF mode, which looks for a face, and when it detects one pics exactly the focus points that are where the eyes are. It might make things too easy, but I have the suspicion professional event/wedding photographers will appreciate it. And again, the viewfinder needs to say what exactly was focused on, so that one can instantly correct it if it's wrong.


Btw., could it be possible that Pentax was planning to do a FF camera all along, but they wanted to go mirrorless from the start (hence no proper mirrorless APS-C camera yet, and no FF camera), and they wanted to release a proper product from the start? So they are working hard on it in the background, pouring resources into developing new lenses for it, which makes them look a bit slow. They don't want to leak that information to the public. They said they want to release something special, it has to bring something new to the table, a unique selling point. But until recently, or even until now they just don't think EVFs are good enough, there's too much lag, the resolution isn't sharp enough, ... so they are holding back. But this camera will be released once they can get a hold of the components they need to make it a great camera.
10-11-2014, 06:30 AM - 1 Like   #543
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Having used a D610 for a while today (doing some evening rodeo shooting with a Nikon 70-200 f2.8), one thing a Pentax FF should certainly have is a brighter viewfinder than Nikon's. Even the K-3's viewfinder is, for some reason, brighter than the Nikon's. The D610's viewfinder felt like a pentamirror viewfinder, not a pentaprism. I kept having to look away from the viewfinder just to check the scene. Never had to do that with my K-3 in low-light. Maybe it's the overlay's the Nikon viewfinder has on it, or something.

So yes, if Pentax wants to be different to some other FF's, they should make some effort to give their FF an extra bright viewfinder. Simple things like that make a big difference.
10-11-2014, 06:39 AM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I'd like to have some of that Samsung tech in a Pentax. Not in a Samsung, but in a Pentax. What's wrong with that? And most of my suggestions do apply to a Pentax, and I do want these things realized in a Pentax, not a Samsung. But if Samsung has a superior image processor, or a superior (at least on paper) sensor, then that's what I want in the Pentax.
And since we already have Sony and Fuji in our Pentax, why not speculate? Samsung could be a better partnership for Pentax. They have made K mount lenses and cameras. Samsung doesn't seem to want to share their lens market with anyone, but since their arch rival is Sony, maybe an alliance with the K mount could make sense. Pentax is hardly a threat. Ricoh's market cap is less than 1/20 of Samsung's. All speculation of course, but why not. It seems like the kind of speculation that makes up the forum. To my mind, Samsung tech in a Pentax sounds better than Sony and Fuji tech in a Pentax.

10-11-2014, 07:13 AM   #545
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no, we won't give you aps-c, this thread is all about FF.

But the chances that pentax produces another mirrorless like the K-01 aren't that small. Since RICOH introduced an "Innovation Line" and i saw, that Pentax officials were very positive about the EVF-theme on an interview at CP+. But i think, that we will see an EVF on the Q before we see it on any other ILC camera.
Hither or tither, i would suggest you go to some store and try a K-5II or a K-30(where the latter one has built in some of the features you are asking for)
And again. Maybe it is just your camera. Try another one. If it is a production failure, maybe RICOH will replace it.
I just can not stop repeating, that i never experienced such a behaviour on the K-5II. It has a very small mid af point. (I am sitting on a couch. In about 1,5m distance there stands a peppermill on the table. I can easily focus on the top screw of the mill.
When i just focus a little left(not even a millimetre) from it, i am focusing on exacty where the middle of the viewfinder points at.
And guess what? I am doing this, without seeing any red lights, because they are gone, since my DSLR has been dropped from about 4m height.
AutoExposure also does not work correctly since i dropped it. But since i started to train my manual skills from the first day i held that beast in my hands, i can deal with those drawbacks of a damaged camera(means it doesn't hurt THAT bad). Are you sure, that yours isn't also damaged? I mean it is Weather Resistant. But there is no cert for Shock Resistancy....

And so you led us to the next thing... ;-) Shock Resistancy...Yep...
And yes a 100% viewfinder FF, that is something that is hard to beat.
And again. Samsung hasn't got a FF sensor. Why on earth should they start to produce one for pentax? I know the GX type cameras but that seems to be history now.
One last thing:
FF is under heavy development and will see public light in 2015 according to Ricoh-Imaging France. Maybe at CP+ maybe later. But even if they are REALLY late(2016) i doubt there is time left for starting another joint-venture with samsung, do technical design of the sensor, start test production, economical calculations, heavy testing on all parts of the camera, certifying etc. etc..
Though i do not really care who delivers the single parts of the camera, and who is servicing the conveyor, i am pretty sure there aren't any chances on this samsung-pentax-fantasy.
My guess is they will use one of the A7 series sensors. Or they beforehand bought into the production of the A99 successors sensor, which should also hit the market in 2015.(Kind of a coincidence, isn't it?)

And another suggestions, that could be implemented in future cameras. Improved mechanical SR -> more axes. so the sensor will also tilt. a little bit. That is at least what i hope for. That combined with an in-lens Optical Stabilisation that is "talking" with the DSLR-Body when moving.(That could actually really be in the works at the moment, when reminding the lens prototypes shown at photokina!)

Last edited by patarok; 10-11-2014 at 07:19 AM.
10-11-2014, 07:43 AM   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by patarok Quote
My guess is they will use one of the A7 series sensors.
I can't follow much of your post. Please quote people. Sony has stated, more or less, that the sensors they're selling are "generic," meaning nothing special. They've also said that they are not, as of now, selling the A7 sensor, so it would seem unlikely that's the sensor under development. The rest of this is stuff that has been discussed at length.

There is no Pentax FF, which is why people talk about APS-C. Another point not worth discussing.
10-11-2014, 08:16 AM   #547
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
I can't follow much of your post. Please quote people. Sony has stated, more or less, that the sensors they're selling are "generic," meaning nothing special. They've also said that they are not, as of now, selling the A7 sensor, so it would seem unlikely that's the sensor under development. The rest of this is stuff that has been discussed at length.

There is no Pentax FF, which is why people talk about APS-C. Another point not worth discussing.
If you can read, you should be able to follow. Furthermore I am in doubt, that you already realized what this thread is about. I give you one last try.

WHAT COULD BE DIFFERENT ABOUT PENTAX FF?

Understood? This is a question, that question should get Pentax users posting, what features they would love to see in the PENTAX FF DSLR. That is only a good guess, but i really think it can't be wrong in a way, where telling other users that this is not about CropCams could be wrong.
I won't cut the "who produces the next sensor for the ff theme" again. I really just not care. But i would love to see more constructive-minded posts, then "I-know-you-don't!/Discussed-enough!"
That would be lovely, wouldn't it?
10-11-2014, 08:35 AM   #548
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I'm not really sure that saying what other manufacturers have done is even answering the question. The question is

What could be different about a pentax

As in something other camera manufacturers don't have. I guess it's open to debate is saying you want something other manufacturers have only better qualifies.

However, the thread would be a lot more to the point from my perspective, if people stuck to the literal interpretation of the thread. Not "what do other manufacturers do that pentax should do?" .. the question is "What can Pentax do different." an awful lot of what's been posted is advertising for features other brands already do, and in the sense of the overall market place, those things aren't different. Those are things that have been done, and in most cases with limited success.

10-11-2014, 08:44 AM   #549
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote

To give an example: 50mm 1.8, stopped down to something like 2.5 or 2.8. Photo of a group of people. I press the AF button while aiming at the head of one of them (cause that's where I see plenty of contrast). The focus ends up on the background. The group may be 4 meters from me, the background is more like 50 meters away. Why on earth did it focus on the background? Simple, the AF area for the center focus point is huge. I'm not the only one complaining. As I kind of expected I also did a few shots where I manually focused. And guess what... spot on. I think I read somewhere that the K-3 (and perhaps K-5 II) sensor is better, but the K-5 is rather useless. But still, you can improve on good. So:
...
There are many reasons why you are not getting focus when taking group pictures including your technique as well as the FF/BF issues of the camera's auto-focusing system. I have both K-5 and k-5IIs, I agree that the k-5IIs fares better in general especially in low light situation than the k-5, but it is not close to what you described. I always choose my focus points, if I am taking a group shots and I use AF-S mode and move my focus points to the top row (center, left and right) only.
10-11-2014, 09:43 AM - 1 Like   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
And since we already have Sony and Fuji in our Pentax, why not speculate? Samsung could be a better partnership for Pentax. They have made K mount lenses and cameras. Samsung doesn't seem to want to share their lens market with anyone, but since their arch rival is Sony, maybe an alliance with the K mount could make sense. Pentax is hardly a threat. Ricoh's market cap is less than 1/20 of Samsung's. All speculation of course, but why not. It seems like the kind of speculation that makes up the forum. To my mind, Samsung tech in a Pentax sounds better than Sony and Fuji tech in a Pentax.
Fuji? Pentax is using a Fujitsu processor, not Fuji/Fujifilm. And I think Fuji is keeping their sensors to themselves?


A EVF on the Q? Interesting, but where would they fit it? Those cameras are rather small, EVFs aren't.


I truly hope we get a new mount with the mirrorless FF Pentax, though it should be closely related to the K mount, so it comes with an adapter that gives us a complete K mount should we want it.


I'm afraid the K-30 was next to the K-5 when I bought my K-5, and I considered both. The shop where I bought the camera has let me test both, and within a few seconds I knew I wouldn't buy the K-30. The video stabilizer is electronic, and it is very obvious. Will have to do further testing with my camera, but there are threads on this forum on that subject. Sadly I haven't seen any camera store in my area that even sells the K-5 II... at the very most it's a K-30 or K-50 (didn't we complain about Pentax' distribution chain?). Probably Pentax has fixed the problem with the K-5 II then, but I'm not changing my camera for such a small upgrade... the loss would probably be too big (shutter count is nearing 50000 now, and the paint has worn off... I guess the resale value isn't too good).


I don't think I really dropped my camera (at least seriously). Shock proofing would be still nice though... and I think that's probably easier to do on a mirrorless camera, as the mirror assembly is maybe a bit sensitive. Having all the metering, AF sensors etc. in the sensor would help.


Fair enough, Samsung doesn't have such a sensor yet. But a sensor based on their technology could be really nice, and maybe Samsung wants to supersize the NX-1 at some point, to compete with the A7...?


QuoteQuote:
Sony sensors can be found in cameras from several different manufacturers. How does your sensor business work?

When we make sensors we put them in several categories. [At any given time] one category of sensors is reserved purely for Sony cameras - we don’t sell them to other companies. Like the sensor in the A7S. But once we’ve enjoyed this advantage we might sell them on later, after some time has passed. This is the second category. The third category of sensors is completely generic - the sensors are created for use internally and to sell externally, to anybody. China or Taiwan or wherever.
Photokina 2014: Sony interview - 'we still need to create more lenses': Digital Photography Review


Sony wants to keep their latest and greatest to themselves.


I used to move focus points on my *istDS, but I really don't like the way it is done on the K-5. So... another suggestion for a FF Pentax: Add a Fn button! Fn + one of the directional buttons = WB, flash, ... Directly pressing the directional button = move focus point.


@normhead: What other brands are already doing = minimum that Pentax should be doing. And then some. What use is a Pentax that does something unique, but falls behind on all the other aspects?
10-11-2014, 04:35 PM   #551
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QuoteOriginally posted by patarok Quote
If you can read, you should be able to follow. Furthermore I am in doubt, that you already realized what this thread is about. I give you one last try.
I responded to your statements about the Samsung. I didn't bring it up. Sorry I didn't bear out your fantasy.

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Fuji? Pentax is using a Fujitsu processor, not Fuji/Fujifilm. And I think Fuji is keeping their sensors to themselves?
Yes, sorry, I scrambled some rumor and my own fantasies. Fujitsu. Sorry, yes, sorry.

And a general comment: I love the speculation in this thread. The conservative takes and the out-there one. It does seem a little inevitable that the speculation will include other partnerships, etc, since Pentax isn't self sufficient. Alas.
10-11-2014, 05:18 PM - 1 Like   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
will include other partnerships, etc, since Pentax isn't self sufficient.
Few camera makers are. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Fuji - all will have chips and other mechanical parts like shutter mechanisms from multiple third-party providers. Just look at any camera teardown - like the iFixit D600 teardown. Full of third-party parts.
10-12-2014, 02:20 AM   #553
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
They've also said that they are not, as of now, selling the A7 sensor,
????

Then what is the sensor in the Nikon D800/810, Easyreeder?

They are not currently selling the A7S variant.
10-12-2014, 08:59 AM   #554
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A7 is 24mp. A7R is 36MP, likely the same as the D810.

The d600 is 24mp but I don't remember if it's a sony or a toshiba sensor. I'm thinking sony but for some reason am doubting myself.
10-12-2014, 11:54 AM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Few camera makers are. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Fuji - all will have chips and other mechanical parts like shutter mechanisms from multiple third-party providers. Just look at any camera teardown - like the iFixit D600 teardown. Full of third-party parts.
Of course, sub-contracting to a specialist manufacturer is the way to keep prices low. A coupla years ago, i was considering X brand of laptop and went to a local shop to see if they could repair it if ncessary. The answer was - yes- all laptops get their hardware parts from 2 or 3 suppliers, the label on the front doesn't matter. :-))

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
????
Then what is the sensor in the Nikon D800/810, Easyreeder?

They are not currently selling the A7S variant.
From numerous posts on the Sony Forum of depreview, they think that the 36mp sensor of the A7R is same as the D810. And its the A7S sensor that Sony is not selling. Which sort of makes sense with Sony's emphasis on video and A7S being such a low light video monster.[COLOR="Silver"]

Last edited by philbaum; 10-12-2014 at 11:59 AM.
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