What could be 'different' about Pentax FF?

devouges · 05-22-2015, 06:54 AM

Well..... here in Canada, the Sony A7 goes for 1299, body only.

patarok · 05-22-2015, 07:01 AM

Used d600s in top condition available for about 800-1000 Euro over here in Central Europe. New for about 1289Euro.

But if there is a real innovation in that upcoming body, i have no problem if the price is a little bit different too.

MyTZuS · 05-23-2015, 05:08 AM

Even though the I think the sensor idea is revolutionary... this is what I think Pentax is doing.

The FF will be for Sports, action photography. I base that upon how the 645z being more portrait & wedding friendly (while being WR among other things) & how the new K3 II is billed as an outdoors, expedition type camera. Not to mention the K-2S being a grand entry level camera.

Just hope they never go away from the spirit of their company, or at least how I perceive it, giving us more bang for the buck. They did it with the 645 especially. Its what I love about Pentax!

kadajawi · 05-23-2015, 05:34 AM

Sports and action require very fast AF that is spot on, and high frame rates (while still focusing in between). That is not the strength of Pentax, and it is harder to achieve with a FF than with an APS-C camera. IIRC the 1D version that is meant for sports has a crop sensor.

I would expect that the FF aims at the same market as the 645z, but for people with lower budgets or not willing to carry such a heavy and big camera.

patarok · 05-23-2015, 02:28 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by kadajawi

Sports and action require very fast AF that is spot on, and high frame rates (while still focusing in between). That is not the strength of Pentax, and it is harder to achieve with a FF than with an APS-C camera. IIRC the 1D version that is meant for sports has a crop sensor.

I would expect that the FF aims at the same market as the 645z, but for people with lower budgets or not willing to carry such a heavy and big camera.

no high frame rates? Are you serious? 8.5 fps is not fast? we already got that speed at a 24MP camera (though it is APS-C but that does not make any difference since the amount of data that has got to be transferred is the same...) OK... it is a bit away from the 11 pictures per second a Nikon D4 is able to shoot. But as processors improve and evolve and we now have 8.5fps at 24.somethingMP APS-C i really dont see any reason for us to not quench out 10-12 fps of a Pentax "LX-D" with a 24.5MP full frame sensor.(Given that this FF body has a faster image processing circuit with with maybe some PRIME IV and an additional CPU that it supports it for more speed) and i really have to admit the new af of my K-3 is kinda lightning fast and accurate enough. but hey, maybe i am just lucky... who knows...

kadajawi · 05-23-2015, 04:32 PM

What I am saying is that APS-C is more appropriate for sports and action IMHO. Also the camera needs to focus in between, and I don't think Pentax is that fast. AFAIK Samsung does 15 fps with focusing in between.

Pentax has other specialities, speed isn't it (though of course it is plenty fast for most).

IMHO the FF probably aims at wedding, landscape, maybe architecture, and studio work. Depending on how weight and size will be it may compete against stuff like the 7D? Small and light is in... and even APS-C cameras from competitors are massive.

patarok · 05-23-2015, 04:51 PM

i tried the Samsung NX1 at photokina. it wasnt that accurate and sometimes lost focus when in "AF.C" mode. And i didnt focus on anything really fast there... (girl/model on a swing set)
if you want to, i can send you some pictures of a soccer game i will make with my K-3. Besides there are professional sports photographers who worked with MZ-S and the glory days of this camera and its AF system are over long ago.

Also i want to point you at:

A bigger frame at the same object ratio
more light getting through
AF fast enough
and better IQ...

I think that is good enough for sports photography and that pentax is the superior allrounder DSLR and will establish itself as such.
others may have their ethernet ports and other trickery like 1000 buttons on the DSLR body...but i think that i like the PENTAX idea ...

i am convinced that the FF DSLR will be a real Canikon-Killer, like its younger siblings (K-S2 and K-3) already are.

If you havent tried the K-3 you defenitely should. I will try out the K-S2 next week.

kadajawi · 05-23-2015, 06:10 PM

I am referring to the latest firmware that was released a few days, according to owners the AF system was greatly improved, now it is even fast and accurate in low light situations.

This is something I hope to see from Pentax as well... regular firmware updates that significantly improve the camera. Not that I have any hopes...

Also IMHO to be a killer it needs to be great at stills, but also good at video. Pentax isn't awful, but lags significantly behind Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung, and perhaps even Canon, despite Canon actively trying to create cameras that suck for video (they want to sell their profitable Cinema EOS cameras instead). If Pentax would at least improve their video to the quality they had in 2010...

Big Dave · 05-23-2015, 08:37 PM

I think that it will simply be a FF version of the K3II. This will give some unique features, while hitting the desired price point. It may have a flip out LCD and builtin wi-fi. Five axis IBIS is here, so that could be purchased from Sony as part of the sensor assembly. It is great on my A7II.

patarok · 05-24-2015, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

I am referring to the latest firmware that was released a few days, according to owners the AF system was greatly improved, now it is even fast and accurate in low light situations.

This is something I hope to see from Pentax as well... regular firmware updates that significantly improve the camera. Not that I have any hopes...

Also IMHO to be a killer it needs to be great at stills, but also good at video. Pentax isn't awful, but lags significantly behind Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung, and perhaps even Canon, despite Canon actively trying to create cameras that suck for video (they want to sell their profitable Cinema EOS cameras instead). If Pentax would at least improve their video to the quality they had in 2010...

with an update even faster, really? So I gotta take a try and update it. If you say that is an improvement it has got to be really fast afterwards... you seem to be a very critical person.

about the video thing:
what really is missing is a follow focus function but i already suggested that in some posts and on the ricoh-engagement forum.

here is a review of the K-3 from a video dedicated site:
Pentax Ricoh K-3 DSLR Review | Videomaker.com

kadajawi · 05-24-2015, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by patarok

with an update even faster, really? So I gotta take a try and update it. If you say that is an improvement it has got to be really fast afterwards... you seem to be a very critical person.

about the video thing:
what really is missing is a follow focus function but i already suggested that in some posts and on the ricoh-engagement forum.

here is a review of the K-3 from a video dedicated site:
Pentax Ricoh K-3 DSLR Review | Videomaker.com

I haven't been able to try a NX-1, especially with the new update, but over at dpreview owners seem to be really happy with the update.

In any case, I don't think Pentax can/should follow the pro sports crowd... if they could compete, great, but it's not necessary. There are plenty of other segments they are more suitable for.

I've seen that review before... nowhere does he actually look at the files that were recorded (samples that I have seen fell apart once there was plenty of detail and movement, other cameras are better at this, especially the K-5), or mention the frame rates (very limited, no slow mo possible, ...), or the crop (only a part of the sensor is used for video recording, so goodbye wide angle), or the SR that makes the video wobbly and where the screen doesn't show what you are actually recording.

It is a decent camera on paper, but what would you say about a 645z, that only records highly compressed JPEG stills (think 1 MB files with 50 MP)? I am exaggerating, of course. But still, depending on what you shoot the result can be pretty terrible. It's the combination of a not that good/efficient encoder and a low bitrate... the encoder in the K-5 wasn't sophisticated at all (though capable at high bitrates), but Pentax just threw very high bitrates at it. --> Beautiful video, no matter what you are shooting.

Video AF is hard to pull of right, and unless they do get it right (and that includes a touchscreen) it is pretty much useless. Much in the way a plane that sort of stays in the air, but not always, is useless too. The tech will come from Sony and Fujitsu (well, whatever the new company is named), until then IMHO Pentax doesn't need to care about that. There's a lot of other video related stuff they should care about first... Log, clean HDMI out, moire/aliasing free video thanks to full sensor readout (plus a mode that does line skipping for action shots where eliminating rolling shutter is more important than aliasing), proper video SR, focus peaking, ... I'm afraid Pentax will be working on 4K and AF instead, cause those things look nice on the box.

Poit · 05-30-2015, 08:17 PM

Hmmmm....after much discussion and many suggestions since this thread was started, my current view is that the Pentax FF is not going to be that 'different' at all.

Whilst it was fun exploring wild and crazy thoughts of interchangeable sensors etc etc....I think the new machine will be more evolutionary, than revolutionary. Given the scant info we currently have, I think that the best we can expect is a camera that rivals the D810 / 5D series cameras, at an attractive price point ($2,000 - $2,500) Look to the feature-set of the K-3ii....add a flippy screen and perhaps in-built wi-fi...and I think that'll be the FF.

Not that' different' at all....but I'm sure it'll be a great machine nonetheless.

patarok · 05-31-2015, 06:53 AM

According to a Pentax-Ambassador, there is something really SPECIAL about that upcoming Full-Frame-Sensor DSLR... But *giggle* he is not allowd to tell us what it is...*facepalm*

Kunzite · 05-31-2015, 11:22 AM

kenspo's contribution to this forum is greatly appreciated by many of us.

Clavius · 06-02-2015, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by patarok

According to a Pentax-Ambassador, there is something really SPECIAL about that upcoming Full-Frame-Sensor DSLR... But *giggle* he is not allowd to tell us what it is...*facepalm*

So, what can be so special about a modern sensor?

Non-bayer á la Foveon? No that's been done and thus isn't very special.

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05-22-2015, 06:54 AM	#691
devouges Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 324	Well..... here in Canada, the Sony A7 goes for 1299, body only.

05-22-2015, 07:01 AM	#692
patarok Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 389	Used d600s in top condition available for about 800-1000 Euro over here in Central Europe. New for about 1289Euro. But if there is a real innovation in that upcoming body, i have no problem if the price is a little bit different too.

05-23-2015, 05:08 AM	#693
MyTZuS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 156	Even though the I think the sensor idea is revolutionary... this is what I think Pentax is doing. The FF will be for Sports, action photography. I base that upon how the 645z being more portrait & wedding friendly (while being WR among other things) & how the new K3 II is billed as an outdoors, expedition type camera. Not to mention the K-2S being a grand entry level camera. Just hope they never go away from the spirit of their company, or at least how I perceive it, giving us more bang for the buck. They did it with the 645 especially. Its what I love about Pentax!

05-23-2015, 05:34 AM	#694
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Sports and action require very fast AF that is spot on, and high frame rates (while still focusing in between). That is not the strength of Pentax, and it is harder to achieve with a FF than with an APS-C camera. IIRC the 1D version that is meant for sports has a crop sensor. I would expect that the FF aims at the same market as the 645z, but for people with lower budgets or not willing to carry such a heavy and big camera.

05-23-2015, 02:28 PM - 1 Like	#695
patarok Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 389	Originally posted by kadajawi Sports and action require very fast AF that is spot on, and high frame rates (while still focusing in between). That is not the strength of Pentax, and it is harder to achieve with a FF than with an APS-C camera. IIRC the 1D version that is meant for sports has a crop sensor. I would expect that the FF aims at the same market as the 645z, but for people with lower budgets or not willing to carry such a heavy and big camera. no high frame rates? Are you serious? 8.5 fps is not fast? we already got that speed at a 24MP camera (though it is APS-C but that does not make any difference since the amount of data that has got to be transferred is the same...) OK... it is a bit away from the 11 pictures per second a Nikon D4 is able to shoot. But as processors improve and evolve and we now have 8.5fps at 24.somethingMP APS-C i really dont see any reason for us to not quench out 10-12 fps of a Pentax "LX-D" with a 24.5MP full frame sensor.(Given that this FF body has a faster image processing circuit with with maybe some PRIME IV and an additional CPU that it supports it for more speed) and i really have to admit the new af of my K-3 is kinda lightning fast and accurate enough. but hey, maybe i am just lucky... who knows...

05-23-2015, 04:32 PM	#696
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	What I am saying is that APS-C is more appropriate for sports and action IMHO. Also the camera needs to focus in between, and I don't think Pentax is that fast. AFAIK Samsung does 15 fps with focusing in between. Pentax has other specialities, speed isn't it (though of course it is plenty fast for most). IMHO the FF probably aims at wedding, landscape, maybe architecture, and studio work. Depending on how weight and size will be it may compete against stuff like the 7D? Small and light is in... and even APS-C cameras from competitors are massive.

05-23-2015, 04:51 PM	#697
patarok Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 389	i tried the Samsung NX1 at photokina. it wasnt that accurate and sometimes lost focus when in "AF.C" mode. And i didnt focus on anything really fast there... (girl/model on a swing set) if you want to, i can send you some pictures of a soccer game i will make with my K-3. Besides there are professional sports photographers who worked with MZ-S and the glory days of this camera and its AF system are over long ago. Also i want to point you at: A bigger frame at the same object ratio more light getting through AF fast enough and better IQ... I think that is good enough for sports photography and that pentax is the superior allrounder DSLR and will establish itself as such. others may have their ethernet ports and other trickery like 1000 buttons on the DSLR body...but i think that i like the PENTAX idea ... i am convinced that the FF DSLR will be a real Canikon-Killer, like its younger siblings (K-S2 and K-3) already are. If you havent tried the K-3 you defenitely should. I will try out the K-S2 next week.

05-23-2015, 06:10 PM	#698
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	I am referring to the latest firmware that was released a few days, according to owners the AF system was greatly improved, now it is even fast and accurate in low light situations. This is something I hope to see from Pentax as well... regular firmware updates that significantly improve the camera. Not that I have any hopes... Also IMHO to be a killer it needs to be great at stills, but also good at video. Pentax isn't awful, but lags significantly behind Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung, and perhaps even Canon, despite Canon actively trying to create cameras that suck for video (they want to sell their profitable Cinema EOS cameras instead). If Pentax would at least improve their video to the quality they had in 2010...

05-23-2015, 08:37 PM	#699
Big Dave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: San Antonio, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 547	I think that it will simply be a FF version of the K3II. This will give some unique features, while hitting the desired price point. It may have a flip out LCD and builtin wi-fi. Five axis IBIS is here, so that could be purchased from Sony as part of the sensor assembly. It is great on my A7II.

05-24-2015, 01:53 AM	#700
patarok Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 389	Originally posted by kadajawi I am referring to the latest firmware that was released a few days, according to owners the AF system was greatly improved, now it is even fast and accurate in low light situations. This is something I hope to see from Pentax as well... regular firmware updates that significantly improve the camera. Not that I have any hopes... Also IMHO to be a killer it needs to be great at stills, but also good at video. Pentax isn't awful, but lags significantly behind Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung, and perhaps even Canon, despite Canon actively trying to create cameras that suck for video (they want to sell their profitable Cinema EOS cameras instead). If Pentax would at least improve their video to the quality they had in 2010... with an update even faster, really? So I gotta take a try and update it. If you say that is an improvement it has got to be really fast afterwards... you seem to be a very critical person. about the video thing: what really is missing is a follow focus function but i already suggested that in some posts and on the ricoh-engagement forum. here is a review of the K-3 from a video dedicated site: Pentax Ricoh K-3 DSLR Review \| Videomaker.com

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05-24-2015, 08:19 AM	#701
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by patarok with an update even faster, really? So I gotta take a try and update it. If you say that is an improvement it has got to be really fast afterwards... you seem to be a very critical person. about the video thing: what really is missing is a follow focus function but i already suggested that in some posts and on the ricoh-engagement forum. here is a review of the K-3 from a video dedicated site: Pentax Ricoh K-3 DSLR Review \| Videomaker.com I haven't been able to try a NX-1, especially with the new update, but over at dpreview owners seem to be really happy with the update. In any case, I don't think Pentax can/should follow the pro sports crowd... if they could compete, great, but it's not necessary. There are plenty of other segments they are more suitable for. I've seen that review before... nowhere does he actually look at the files that were recorded (samples that I have seen fell apart once there was plenty of detail and movement, other cameras are better at this, especially the K-5), or mention the frame rates (very limited, no slow mo possible, ...), or the crop (only a part of the sensor is used for video recording, so goodbye wide angle), or the SR that makes the video wobbly and where the screen doesn't show what you are actually recording. It is a decent camera on paper, but what would you say about a 645z, that only records highly compressed JPEG stills (think 1 MB files with 50 MP)? I am exaggerating, of course. But still, depending on what you shoot the result can be pretty terrible. It's the combination of a not that good/efficient encoder and a low bitrate... the encoder in the K-5 wasn't sophisticated at all (though capable at high bitrates), but Pentax just threw very high bitrates at it. --> Beautiful video, no matter what you are shooting. Video AF is hard to pull of right, and unless they do get it right (and that includes a touchscreen) it is pretty much useless. Much in the way a plane that sort of stays in the air, but not always, is useless too. The tech will come from Sony and Fujitsu (well, whatever the new company is named), until then IMHO Pentax doesn't need to care about that. There's a lot of other video related stuff they should care about first... Log, clean HDMI out, moire/aliasing free video thanks to full sensor readout (plus a mode that does line skipping for action shots where eliminating rolling shutter is more important than aliasing), proper video SR, focus peaking, ... I'm afraid Pentax will be working on 4K and AF instead, cause those things look nice on the box.

05-30-2015, 08:17 PM	#702
Poit Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 423 Original Poster	Hmmmm....after much discussion and many suggestions since this thread was started, my current view is that the Pentax FF is not going to be that 'different' at all. Whilst it was fun exploring wild and crazy thoughts of interchangeable sensors etc etc....I think the new machine will be more evolutionary, than revolutionary. Given the scant info we currently have, I think that the best we can expect is a camera that rivals the D810 / 5D series cameras, at an attractive price point ($2,000 - $2,500) Look to the feature-set of the K-3ii....add a flippy screen and perhaps in-built wi-fi...and I think that'll be the FF. Not that' different' at all....but I'm sure it'll be a great machine nonetheless.

05-31-2015, 06:53 AM	#703
patarok Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 389	According to a Pentax-Ambassador, there is something really SPECIAL about that upcoming Full-Frame-Sensor DSLR... But giggle he is not allowd to tell us what it is...facepalm

05-31-2015, 11:22 AM	#704
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	kenspo's contribution to this forum is greatly appreciated by many of us.

06-02-2015, 04:49 AM	#705
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by patarok According to a Pentax-Ambassador, there is something really SPECIAL about that upcoming Full-Frame-Sensor DSLR... But giggle he is not allowd to tell us what it is...facepalm So, what can be so special about a modern sensor? Non-bayer á la Foveon? No that's been done and thus isn't very special.