What could be 'different' about Pentax FF?

Poit · 07-28-2014, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

I'd be surprised if you couldn't change the viewfinder screen on any of the FF cameras out there. Heck, it was possible on my *istDS!

Different sensor format... what for? So that completely new lenses are needed? I fail to see the point.

They weren't my suggestions, I was just summarising some of the more interesting concepts proposed that would make a new system 'different'.

For what it's worth, a square sensor could still fit inside the image circle of a k-mount lens. It would need to be mirrorless with EVF, though. Potential benefits have been discussed widely.

Sandy Hancock · 07-29-2014, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

I'd be surprised if you couldn't change the viewfinder screen on any of the FF cameras out there. Heck, it was possible on my *istDS!

Interchangeable *viewfinder*, not interchangeable focussing screen....

Big Dave · 08-02-2014, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

Interchangeable *viewfinder*, not interchangeable focussing screen....

This could be a good idea for video. You could have a interchangeable EVF with mirror lockup and electronic first curtain shutter or full electronic shutter. This camera might have difficulty competing on price.

Kunzite · 08-02-2014, 10:25 AM

The problem is what to do with the metering system, and with the AF point LED indicators. The pentaprism housing now includes critical systems, so as much as I like the idea of interchangeable viewfinders (I'm only interested in the optical ones, though

) I don't think we should realistically expect it.

Poit · 08-22-2014, 03:47 PM

The recent K-S1 images have got me thinking about another modular approach (mentioned before, I think) that Pentax could take with the FF:

Originally posted by Mistral75

A prototype system close to what you are describing was developed by Pentax Ricoh Imaging R&D department in 2012 and early 2013 under the name of "Pentaflex" and reported back here. This was a modular camera with:

- a mirrorless, viewfinderless body with a new mount, totally electronic, with a large diameter and a short register, then called 'Ace' mount (as being superior to K-King and Q-Queen)
- an electronic viewfinder one could plug on top of the body
- alternatively, the 'Pentaflex' module one could plug on the front and top of the body, comprising a K mount, a mirror box (partly 'penetrating inside' the Ace-mount), its mirror, an optical viewfinder, a dedicated phase-detection autofocus system, an actuator to settle the aperture on K-mount lenses (with full retrocompatibility with K and M lenses) and an AF motor
- two more simple K-to-Ace adapters, both with SDM/DC contacts, one with AF motor, one without (the one without AF motor being targeted to SDM, DC and non-AF lenses), both without optical viewfinder but compatible with the electronic one and including a simple, mechanical aperture coupling (think K-to-Q adapter)
- dedicated Ace-mount lenses with electronic aperture, focus-by-wire and stepper motors.

The only small problem, as I see it, is the requirement to develop two new lens ranges (K-mount FF, and A). Perhaps the cost of the 'A' would be absorbed by multiple levels (entry, mid and high).

But, a system like this would certainly be different...

Even if the K-S1 is not such an animal, I can't help but wonder if its shape isn't a harbinger of things to come.

rawr · 08-23-2014, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Poit

a system like this would certainly be different...

And complex to manufacture, market and support. It doesn't sound very simple.

Poit · 08-23-2014, 02:42 AM

I have absolutely no idea what engineering problems / solutions the idea would entail. I guess the interface between the mirrorless unit and the adapter (with mirror assembly etc) would be one difficult problem, plus maintaining tolerances of relevant registration distances.

I'm not sure why the marketing and support would be difficult? I would have thought it would open up loads of marketing opportunities. Two possible lens mounts to satisfy the old crowd (us) and new users, people who prefer mirrorless and those who want an OVF....

If it could be done well, and with a high degree of reliability, I think it'd be a marketing dream....a 'best of both worlds' solution.

But, I'm just speculating. That was the point of this thread, to throw around possible ideas for that 'different' FF

kadajawi · 08-24-2014, 10:19 PM

I think doing 2 practically identical cameras, except for one being a standard DSLR with K mount and the other one a mirrorless with KM (K mirrorless, able to fully use K mount lenses with a purely mechanical adapter) would be fairly trivial.

But you are talking about changing more... that's interesting. I think tolerances could be an issue, perhaps that could be fixed by having some sensors and a motor that can move the sensor? If that motor has a bigger range it could even be used to AF MF lenses to a certain degree.

The technical hurdles can be overcome I think, the question is more if there is a market, how big is it, ... This only makes sense for people who want to switch between mirrorless and mirror regularly, but do not want to have a backup body. If all I ever want is a mirror, a proper from ground up DSLR may offer better balance (weight etc.), a more suitable shape, less things that can go wrong etc. Same with mirrorless. A camera like this would be a bit of a compromise.

Personally I'd love to have that though.

Seeing how fast a Snapdragon 801 phone is I must say I'd love to have that + Android in my camera. Mostly to take care of the interface, but also some other things. My K-5 forces me to wait while it is saving photos. I can take another photo, but the menu is blocked. That has annoyed me many times, the camera should be able to save in the background while I do other things. I could also copy files from SD card to an external hard drive etc. without a computer. Great for traveling and backups in general. Viewing, selecting and deleting photos would be faster and easier too. Geotagging the photos. Adding additional information to them, either in form of text or audio. Say while reviewing the photos or videos on the day you shot them you can add information that places the photos. Nice anecdotes you'd like attached to them, etc. (great for tourists). Zooming in, checking photos would become easier on a touchscreen Android camera, if done right. Adding metadata could become easy and fast. There are also quite a few things that could be done, similar to an API, but on camera.

AFAIK our cameras use general purpose ARM CPUs for some parts, like the menus. But they use rather outdated ones it seems. Giving it something much more potent could speed things up.

Btw., don't news organisations and newspapers use custom made software for their photographers? I've heard a pro working in such an environment talk about it on a podcast. Basically after a shoot (like a match) they copy their photos onto their laptop. Special software developed by their employer will then automatically upload previews of all the photos, so that an editor can pick the photos he wants. Those are then transferred in full quality. Imagine Pentax being able to offer a camera that lets newspapers do exactly that. A rugged, compact enough pro DSLR they can write an app for that automatically (when activated) uploads previews at reduced resolution to the newspaper, which then picks the raw photos they want to have. All while the shoot is happening. Who knows, maybe they'd switch to Pentax?

noser · 08-26-2014, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Btw., don't news organisations and newspapers use custom made software for their photographers? I've heard a pro working in such an environment talk about it on a podcast. Basically after a shoot (like a match) they copy their photos onto their laptop. Special software developed by their employer will then automatically upload previews of all the photos, so that an editor can pick the photos he wants. Those are then transferred in full quality. Imagine Pentax being able to offer a camera that lets newspapers do exactly that. A rugged, compact enough pro DSLR they can write an app for that automatically (when activated) uploads previews at reduced resolution to the newspaper, which then picks the raw photos they want to have. All while the shoot is happening. Who knows, maybe they'd switch to Pentax?

Sounds like the reference was to Photo Mechanic. I have an older version, and it's lightning fast at file loads compared to Lightroom (even LR5). So it's power is a simple UI to rate shots and quickly zoom to 100% to check focus, then upload.

If I could do wireless reviews on an iPad at better-than-1:1 with zero lag, then copy the keepers to the cloud for later post processing, I would love it.

But then with that CPU power ... I could just use LR on my iPad and get post out of way ... Hmmm... I can do that today, almost. It's not wireless though.

kadajawi · 08-26-2014, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by noser

Sounds like the reference was to Photo Mechanic. I have an older version, and it's lightning fast at file loads compared to Lightroom (even LR5). So it's power is a simple UI to rate shots and quickly zoom to 100% to check focus, then upload.

If I could do wireless reviews on an iPad at better-than-1:1 with zero lag, then copy the keepers to the cloud for later post processing, I would love it.

But then with that CPU power ... I could just use LR on my iPad and get post out of way ... Hmmm... I can do that today, almost. It's not wireless though.

If I remember correctly he said the software was written just for that newspaper or publication or so (Sports Illustrated?).

In any case, everyone has a different use case, APIs, powerful CPUs and (more) open OSses could let everyone turn their Pentax into the camera that works best for them.

LFLee · 08-26-2014, 04:42 AM

The Pentax FF should be

1. ran fast and you feel like sitting in luxury car instead of riding;
2. white color for sure, but the fur should be thick enough to provide comfortable seating;
3. easy maneuver, preferably go anywhere as you think;
4. ...

...oh wait.... oh yea, we are talking about unicorn, are we?...

JimmyDranox · 08-26-2014, 08:23 AM

Camera Crisis Center Prepares for Fall Camera Introductions | New Camera News

jogiba · 08-26-2014, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

Camera Crisis Center Prepares for Fall Camera Introductions | New Camera News

“Who needs full frame? This camera will smite all non-believers!”
Pentaxicans Anxiously Await New Entry Level DSLR | New Camera News

ElJamoquio · 08-26-2014, 02:29 PM

“I showed the spy photos with pride to two of my friends that shoot Canon and Nikon DSLRs. Boy are they ever jealous!”

**monochrome** · 08-26-2014, 02:52 PM

645z has dual processors and dual buffers. Put these systems in a K20D body with the best Sony FF sensor you can get and trhe standard peripherals and sell a FAST FF at the somewhat better price point. If you also improve the shutter so you can get 1/250 sync you'll have a complete Pentaxian lineup.

08-24-2014, 10:19 PM	#203
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	I think doing 2 practically identical cameras, except for one being a standard DSLR with K mount and the other one a mirrorless with KM (K mirrorless, able to fully use K mount lenses with a purely mechanical adapter) would be fairly trivial. But you are talking about changing more... that's interesting. I think tolerances could be an issue, perhaps that could be fixed by having some sensors and a motor that can move the sensor? If that motor has a bigger range it could even be used to AF MF lenses to a certain degree. The technical hurdles can be overcome I think, the question is more if there is a market, how big is it, ... This only makes sense for people who want to switch between mirrorless and mirror regularly, but do not want to have a backup body. If all I ever want is a mirror, a proper from ground up DSLR may offer better balance (weight etc.), a more suitable shape, less things that can go wrong etc. Same with mirrorless. A camera like this would be a bit of a compromise. Personally I'd love to have that though. Seeing how fast a Snapdragon 801 phone is I must say I'd love to have that + Android in my camera. Mostly to take care of the interface, but also some other things. My K-5 forces me to wait while it is saving photos. I can take another photo, but the menu is blocked. That has annoyed me many times, the camera should be able to save in the background while I do other things. I could also copy files from SD card to an external hard drive etc. without a computer. Great for traveling and backups in general. Viewing, selecting and deleting photos would be faster and easier too. Geotagging the photos. Adding additional information to them, either in form of text or audio. Say while reviewing the photos or videos on the day you shot them you can add information that places the photos. Nice anecdotes you'd like attached to them, etc. (great for tourists). Zooming in, checking photos would become easier on a touchscreen Android camera, if done right. Adding metadata could become easy and fast. There are also quite a few things that could be done, similar to an API, but on camera. AFAIK our cameras use general purpose ARM CPUs for some parts, like the menus. But they use rather outdated ones it seems. Giving it something much more potent could speed things up. Btw., don't news organisations and newspapers use custom made software for their photographers? I've heard a pro working in such an environment talk about it on a podcast. Basically after a shoot (like a match) they copy their photos onto their laptop. Special software developed by their employer will then automatically upload previews of all the photos, so that an editor can pick the photos he wants. Those are then transferred in full quality. Imagine Pentax being able to offer a camera that lets newspapers do exactly that. A rugged, compact enough pro DSLR they can write an app for that automatically (when activated) uploads previews at reduced resolution to the newspaper, which then picks the raw photos they want to have. All while the shoot is happening. Who knows, maybe they'd switch to Pentax? Last edited by kadajawi; 08-24-2014 at 10:36 PM.

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07-28-2014, 11:32 PM	#196
Poit Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 423 Original Poster	Originally posted by kadajawi I'd be surprised if you couldn't change the viewfinder screen on any of the FF cameras out there. Heck, it was possible on my *istDS! Different sensor format... what for? So that completely new lenses are needed? I fail to see the point. They weren't my suggestions, I was just summarising some of the more interesting concepts proposed that would make a new system 'different'. For what it's worth, a square sensor could still fit inside the image circle of a k-mount lens. It would need to be mirrorless with EVF, though. Potential benefits have been discussed widely.

07-29-2014, 12:11 AM	#197
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,275	Originally posted by kadajawi I'd be surprised if you couldn't change the viewfinder screen on any of the FF cameras out there. Heck, it was possible on my istDS! Interchangeable viewfinder*, not interchangeable focussing screen....

08-02-2014, 10:11 AM	#198
Big Dave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: San Antonio, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 547	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock Interchangeable viewfinder, not interchangeable focussing screen.... This could be a good idea for video. You could have a interchangeable EVF with mirror lockup and electronic first curtain shutter or full electronic shutter. This camera might have difficulty competing on price.

08-02-2014, 10:25 AM	#199
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	The problem is what to do with the metering system, and with the AF point LED indicators. The pentaprism housing now includes critical systems, so as much as I like the idea of interchangeable viewfinders (I'm only interested in the optical ones, though ) I don't think we should realistically expect it.

08-22-2014, 03:47 PM	#200
Poit Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 423 Original Poster	The recent K-S1 images have got me thinking about another modular approach (mentioned before, I think) that Pentax could take with the FF: Originally posted by Mistral75 A prototype system close to what you are describing was developed by Pentax Ricoh Imaging R&D department in 2012 and early 2013 under the name of "Pentaflex" and reported back here. This was a modular camera with: - a mirrorless, viewfinderless body with a new mount, totally electronic, with a large diameter and a short register, then called 'Ace' mount (as being superior to K-King and Q-Queen) - an electronic viewfinder one could plug on top of the body - alternatively, the 'Pentaflex' module one could plug on the front and top of the body, comprising a K mount, a mirror box (partly 'penetrating inside' the Ace-mount), its mirror, an optical viewfinder, a dedicated phase-detection autofocus system, an actuator to settle the aperture on K-mount lenses (with full retrocompatibility with K and M lenses) and an AF motor - two more simple K-to-Ace adapters, both with SDM/DC contacts, one with AF motor, one without (the one without AF motor being targeted to SDM, DC and non-AF lenses), both without optical viewfinder but compatible with the electronic one and including a simple, mechanical aperture coupling (think K-to-Q adapter) - dedicated Ace-mount lenses with electronic aperture, focus-by-wire and stepper motors. The only small problem, as I see it, is the requirement to develop two new lens ranges (K-mount FF, and A). Perhaps the cost of the 'A' would be absorbed by multiple levels (entry, mid and high). But, a system like this would certainly be different... Even if the K-S1 is not such an animal, I can't help but wonder if its shape isn't a harbinger of things to come.

08-23-2014, 01:00 AM	#201
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Poit a system like this would certainly be different... And complex to manufacture, market and support. It doesn't sound very simple.

08-23-2014, 02:42 AM	#202
Poit Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 423 Original Poster	I have absolutely no idea what engineering problems / solutions the idea would entail. I guess the interface between the mirrorless unit and the adapter (with mirror assembly etc) would be one difficult problem, plus maintaining tolerances of relevant registration distances. I'm not sure why the marketing and support would be difficult? I would have thought it would open up loads of marketing opportunities. Two possible lens mounts to satisfy the old crowd (us) and new users, people who prefer mirrorless and those who want an OVF.... If it could be done well, and with a high degree of reliability, I think it'd be a marketing dream....a 'best of both worlds' solution. But, I'm just speculating. That was the point of this thread, to throw around possible ideas for that 'different' FF

08-26-2014, 04:08 AM	#204
noser Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Calgary, AB CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 292	Originally posted by kadajawi Btw., don't news organisations and newspapers use custom made software for their photographers? I've heard a pro working in such an environment talk about it on a podcast. Basically after a shoot (like a match) they copy their photos onto their laptop. Special software developed by their employer will then automatically upload previews of all the photos, so that an editor can pick the photos he wants. Those are then transferred in full quality. Imagine Pentax being able to offer a camera that lets newspapers do exactly that. A rugged, compact enough pro DSLR they can write an app for that automatically (when activated) uploads previews at reduced resolution to the newspaper, which then picks the raw photos they want to have. All while the shoot is happening. Who knows, maybe they'd switch to Pentax? Sounds like the reference was to Photo Mechanic. I have an older version, and it's lightning fast at file loads compared to Lightroom (even LR5). So it's power is a simple UI to rate shots and quickly zoom to 100% to check focus, then upload. If I could do wireless reviews on an iPad at better-than-1:1 with zero lag, then copy the keepers to the cloud for later post processing, I would love it. But then with that CPU power ... I could just use LR on my iPad and get post out of way ... Hmmm... I can do that today, almost. It's not wireless though.

08-26-2014, 04:34 AM	#205
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by noser Sounds like the reference was to Photo Mechanic. I have an older version, and it's lightning fast at file loads compared to Lightroom (even LR5). So it's power is a simple UI to rate shots and quickly zoom to 100% to check focus, then upload. If I could do wireless reviews on an iPad at better-than-1:1 with zero lag, then copy the keepers to the cloud for later post processing, I would love it. But then with that CPU power ... I could just use LR on my iPad and get post out of way ... Hmmm... I can do that today, almost. It's not wireless though. If I remember correctly he said the software was written just for that newspaper or publication or so (Sports Illustrated?). In any case, everyone has a different use case, APIs, powerful CPUs and (more) open OSses could let everyone turn their Pentax into the camera that works best for them.

08-26-2014, 04:42 AM	#206
LFLee Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,292	The Pentax FF should be 1. ran fast and you feel like sitting in luxury car instead of riding; 2. white color for sure, but the fur should be thick enough to provide comfortable seating; 3. easy maneuver, preferably go anywhere as you think; 4. ... ...oh wait.... oh yea, we are talking about unicorn, are we?...

08-26-2014, 08:23 AM	#207
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	Camera Crisis Center Prepares for Fall Camera Introductions \| New Camera News

08-26-2014, 11:47 AM	#208
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by JimmyDranox Camera Crisis Center Prepares for Fall Camera Introductions \| New Camera News “Who needs full frame? This camera will smite all non-believers!” Pentaxicans Anxiously Await New Entry Level DSLR \| New Camera News

08-26-2014, 02:29 PM	#209
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	“I showed the spy photos with pride to two of my friends that shoot Canon and Nikon DSLRs. Boy are they ever jealous!”

08-26-2014, 02:52 PM	#210
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	645z has dual processors and dual buffers. Put these systems in a K20D body with the best Sony FF sensor you can get and trhe standard peripherals and sell a FAST FF at the somewhat better price point. If you also improve the shutter so you can get 1/250 sync you'll have a complete Pentaxian lineup.