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04-23-2014, 02:28 AM   #46
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Hope never dies...

04-23-2014, 05:20 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
Speaking of DPReview...

Someone at this thread over there says they have that magazine, and it doesn't say that at all. It just says that a Pentax person said "never say never" when asked about a FF camera in the future (not mentioning Photokina until later in the article).

So again, it seems like this is much ado about nothing...
The translation would be more like "the question is not topical", which I agree may signify never say never, but in my opinion also not anytime soon
04-23-2014, 06:54 AM   #48
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So, in short, this thread has been a bit of trollery (hopefully just well intentioned and from a mistake or misunderstanding).

I guess it's time that we just embrace the fact that Pentax has 3 lines of ILCs and that's going to be it.

For happy snappers who just want to take a small camera setup around and register their moments, there's the Q line.
For the enthusiasts, there's the APS-C (K) offerings.
And for the professionals, there's the 645 line.

And that's it. Embrace the APS-C, where Pentax pretty much rules the scene, or spend the money and go MF. Don't hold on for the 135 format because what kid of user would it target? For enthusiasts it would be overkill to support two different formats. And for pros it would take a lot of investment in new lenses to support a whole new system.
04-23-2014, 07:23 AM   #49
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Ricoh/Pentax isn't going to show their hand till they are ready. I am firmly convinced that this is the year of Pentax full frame and this article doesn't change that fact at all either way. At the same time, anyone who really knows anything is locked up tight with binding agreements and won't be sharing anything. Leaks won't start till a couple of weeks before release at the soonest, meaning that we are still several months away.

04-23-2014, 07:28 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Doesn't surprise me at all.

Don't worry folks, next fake Pentax FF rumor is always just around the corner...
It can't get here soon enough... boredom is setting in.

QuoteQuote:
For the enthusiasts, there's the APS-C (K) offerings.
All those pro's who use 4/3 or APS-c, I guess they just get written off in your world. Over simplification is a bad way to clarify an issue. I've met a lot of pros, who never met a camera they didn't like, of any kind.
04-23-2014, 08:33 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
All those pro's who use 4/3 or APS-c, I guess they just get written off in your world. Over simplification is a bad way to clarify an issue. I've met a lot of pros, who never met a camera they didn't like, of any kind.
Norm, I'm not in the mood to start arguing, I'm just stating what the intended market for these systems is, and the marketing of these cameras usually states that.

Of course a pro can take a point and shoot and take pro quality photos, so I'm not sure why you love to get worked up about this, every time it is mentioned that Pentax APS-C cameras are marketed as enthusiast cameras. It is what it is.
04-23-2014, 08:34 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It can't get here soon enough... boredom is setting in.

Why the constant posting in the FF specific section then?
I think there are plenty of other sections that are not dedicated to the discussion of FF.
04-24-2014, 05:45 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
Norm, I'm not in the mood to start arguing, I'm just stating what the intended market for these systems is, and the marketing of these cameras usually states that.

Of course a pro can take a point and shoot and take pro quality photos, so I'm not sure why you love to get worked up about this, every time it is mentioned that Pentax APS-C cameras are marketed as enthusiast cameras. It is what it is.
I've never before seen marketing hype quoted as a good source of information. The Pentax marketing hype does say "Benchmarked as the most advanced enthusiast DSLR available," but it also says "Designed for the demanding photographer",and "Professional H.264 video" take your pick. I'd choose designed for the demanding photographer over some artificial category that no one really knows what it means. I read what they wrote and see marketing department that defines a category that they can be the best in in their ads.

The reason I hate terms like enthusiast etc. is that they are not a technical spec., they impart no useful information, beyond probably the price range of the camera. An entry level costs less, a pro-level camera costs more, and enthusiast camera is somewhere in the middle. But you still have to read the spec. sheet to find out what you're getting. My point, which I make over and over, is, you can't let your perception of a cameras abilities be determined by marketers. An example, being my trip to the Pentax booth a few years ago...the guy looked over my gear, and talked a bit about what i did, and put a 645D in my hands...as if to say "this is our pro camera"... that's marketing, yet anyone who understands what I do would know a 645D would be inappropriate most of the time, as would a 35x24 sensor. Look at all the pros around the web shooting APS-c, and you realize a lot of pros shoot with "enthusiast" cameras. SO what I'm saying is, I define professional by whether or not it's used by pros. You're saying, "let's let the marketers tell us how to think." A word of advice... don't let the marketers tell you how to think. It will cost you a bundle.


QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Why the constant posting in the FF specific section then?
I think there are plenty of other sections that are not dedicated to the discussion of FF.
I love the full frame speculation... I think you mistake my enthusiasm for sarcasm... I don't even know why... some kind of weird fascination... I've suggested several times what I'd like to see in a Pentax FF, what would interest me etc./ I hardly see why you're getting your knickers in a knot because I post in the FF forums. The simple fact is the 35x24 market is really segmented right now... there is the D800 and A7r... high resolution cameras, there are the 6D, D600 enthusiast style cameras, and there is the D4s and A7s which have specially developed sensitive sensors... that segmentation is not happening in APS-c, 4/3 or even MF. So right now 35x24 is looking really exciting. It's going to be the odd photographer that doesn't have some interest in one of those categories. I don't even like the format, yet I can see that's where the innovation is occurring right now. So it''s an interesting thing to follow. If you can't find something that excites you in the 35x24 market right now, you don't understand photography.

But still what really excites me is the hope some of that technology will trickle down to APS-c. I think the K-3 is probably the equivalent of the high resolution cameras, now I want the s, the 8 MP ultra sensitive APS-c. Unfortunately, I'm guessing that's not going to happen.


Last edited by normhead; 04-24-2014 at 06:06 AM.
04-24-2014, 06:36 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
now I want the s, the 8 MP ultra sensitive APS-c. Unfortunately, I'm guessing that's not going to happen.
OMG, that would be so cool! It can happen. Who knew Sony was going to come up with the A7s? I don't understand all the people rambling about ultra sensitive low mp cameras being to small of a niche, and having unusable low MP's for today's age. I'd rather have fewer high quality pixels then lots and lots of unsensitive ones.
04-24-2014, 07:12 AM   #55
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Canon has a 2MP sensor designed for video cameras. I think they shot clear demo footage of a tiny frog in a jungle at midnight.
The A7S appeals to similar needs.
04-24-2014, 07:19 AM   #56
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Well... let me try this again...

The K system is Pentax's enthusiast line (as stated on their own website). The 645Z is marketed as Pentax's professional camera (also on their website). How would FF fit into the line? K-3 is already the "advanced enthusiast" camera. Would they have two professional lines? Is it worth it for Ricoh to do that? Or would they have both "advanced" and "professional" full frame cameras, like Canon and Nikon do? Given that they already cater to those markets, what could full frame offer in terms of target markets? This could answer the question of whether Pentax will release a FF or not. If they can find a target market (other than people with old lenses laying around) and they see a business case for it, then it will come.
04-24-2014, 07:50 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
Well... let me try this again...

The K system is Pentax's enthusiast line (as stated on their own website). The 645Z is marketed as Pentax's professional camera (also on their website). How would FF fit into the line? K-3 is already the "advanced enthusiast" camera. Would they have two professional lines? Is it worth it for Ricoh to do that? Or would they have both "advanced" and "professional" full frame cameras, like Canon and Nikon do? Given that they already cater to those markets, what could full frame offer in terms of target markets? This could answer the question of whether Pentax will release a FF or not. If they can find a target market (other than people with old lenses laying around) and they see a business case for it, then it will come.
I think the issue is whether "advanced enthusiast" APS-C is going away. When the K5 was released, Hoya was able to charge 1500 dollars for it, while now, the K3 is selling in the 1100 dollar range.

On the other hand, Ricoh can see that higher end full frame gear (D800/D4) still commands high prices as do high end lenses such as the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II. The future for high end APS-C is not going to go away, but certainly there won't be as much gravy in the segment as there was in the past.
04-24-2014, 09:08 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the issue is whether "advanced enthusiast" APS-C is going away. When the K5 was released, Hoya was able to charge 1500 dollars for it, while now, the K3 is selling in the 1100 dollar range.

On the other hand, Ricoh can see that higher end full frame gear (D800/D4) still commands high prices as do high end lenses such as the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II. The future for high end APS-C is not going to go away, but certainly there won't be as much gravy in the segment as there was in the past.
Good point. When the K20D was released in 2008 the MSRP was 2,099.95 (according to CNet) and street price was around 1,700 I think. To command that kind of price nowadays you pretty much have to have a FF sensor.
I guess I overlooked that Nikon uses the "high end" terminology for the D800 above "advanced" cameras, and places it below the "professional" line (which would be the D4s).

Canon's USA website seems to put the entire EOS lineup (including the lower end stuff) under "Professional Imaging Products", but I've seen where they also are said to only consider the 1D series their professional cameras, and the rest is just enthusiast stuff.

I know it's all just words but I'm just trying to imagine what kind of target market(s) the Pentax FF would go for, if it does come out.
05-23-2014, 08:40 AM   #59
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Pentax sees bigger!

At the last Photokina, we had a chance of a free-flowing discussion with the presidents of the new Ricoh / Pentax group and discussed the rumors revolving around a future full frame DSLR. "There is no news" was the answer. Which, when you properly decode Japanese thinking, does not mean "no", but "later"!

With six months to next Photokina, rumors started again. And we can tell you: this time, there really is news, but don't assume that Pentax is limited to a new 24 x 36 SLR ! The brand doesn't forget her glorious past and a medium format 645 Digital could attract many pros, greedy for pixels.
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05-23-2014, 10:19 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by NickLarsson Quote
Pentax sees bigger!
Perfect marketing slogan. Easily translated, is easily remembered, but doesn't mean anything. It could be used to sell APS-C and Q cameras (bigger as in more magnification), 645 format (our FF is bigger than the others) and it could be used to differentiate a Pentax 35mm sensor offering in ways we haven't thought of yet.
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