[unapye]

It was only a month more between the announcement of the Pentax k20d and k-5. Maximum iso of the Pentax k20d is 6400 and maximum of the k-5 is 51200. It is 3EV.

[Giklab]

It was only a month more between the announcement of the Pentax k20d and k-5. Maximum iso of the Pentax k20d is 6400 and maximum of the k-5 is 51200. It is 3EV.

You said "increase and improve".
Max ISO might increase by 1 or 2 stops. It will probably improve by less than one stop. Increase =/= improvement (example 1 - D4 and D4s, 1 stop increase, but maybe 0.5 stop improvement at best); (example 2 - K-30 and K-50).
DxOMark can be used to track sensor progress pretty reliably if you want.

[ElJamoquio]

I read somewhere about a rumored one stop improvement coming.

It certainly has been a long time waiting... no noise improvements for the past four years!

[easyreeder]

Digital cameras are a very large, but declining and mature market. As a manufacturer, to grow your business you either steal customers away from competitors or milk existing customers for new revenue. The potential market for a new FF DSLR is going to be restricted to current owners of APS-C DSLRs with enough disposable income to upgrade. Current owners of FF DSLRs aren't going to throw away their gear to switch brands and new DSLR owners are far more likely to start with APS-C.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. I'd differ with you on a few points.

Yes, a declining and mature market, but the DSLR market will increasingly tap into the camcorder and film market. People don't like to talk video, but there it is. When I talk to my kids about a photographer who just takes stills, they think it's the dumbest thing they ever heard. To them, the first choice is "picture or video?" Also, the lag here is increasingly the hardware of the computers, not the cameras: 4k video is well within the range of filmmakers—it's the edit hardware that's prohibitive.

Entry level people aren't more likely to start APS-C. Not when there are full frame entry-level cameras. When full frame reaches that market segment (and by then the cameras will be the same size as APS-C cameras), APS-C will be well on its way to obsolescence. But, FF may not reach that market for a few years. Enthusiast market? By the end of this year (look at the Sony and Canon offerings), it's going to be very difficult to sell a new APS-C camera to an enthusiast. Pentax has to diversify into FF. Committing fully to APS-C at this time is poorly advised. (And the K mount is an ff mount, with FA lenses that can be updated in the short term.)

Current FF people aren't going to switch gear. More or less that's true. But people upgrading from APS-C, and there will be a lot of those in the next few years, will be open to the possibility. They need new lenses anyway. It's also been my experience that Canon folks don't love their lenses. On the video side, many Canon shooters rent lenses.

I do love my Pentax lenses, as do, by the way, my Canon buddies, who are using them with adapters. It bums me out to think of leaving Pentax, and the upgrade path from my K3 is prohibitive. To get the control I have in the K3, I'll have to drop 3-4 grand on, for example, a Canon. Maybe I could spend less on the forthcoming Sony A99 updated camera (the A99 is an obvious model for Pentax, by the way, because it allows for the APS-C crop factor, and APS-C lenses).

Anyway, I'm the market, I think. I came in entry-level with Pentax a few years ago, then upgraded (pre-ordered) to the K3, which is a beast, and now I'm planning to move up again—and the move, seems pretty obvious, is FF. Basically, I want to get the aperture values of ff lenses (without the APS-C crop). I'll watch what comes out until the end of the year, and if Pentax isn't there, I'm going to Canon or Sony. I'm not fond of Sony, but the sensors are Sony, and at least the A mount has a history.

Oh, and by the way, I've spent quite a bit of money on Pentax, but the lack of FF has put a moratorium on that. I'm wait and see now. And I'm not the only one. I don't know if any company can afford that kind of bleed.

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Last edited by easyreeder; 06-08-2014 at 07:03 AM.

[normhead]

Oh, and by the way, I've spent quite a bit of money on Pentax, but the lack of FF has put a moratorium on that. I'm wait and see now. And I'm not the only one. I don't know if any company can afford that kind of bleed.

So, do you have any pictures to show us?

[easyreeder]

So, do you have any pictures to show us?

I'm moving six hours of pictures to a drive right now, but ha, sorry dude, they're not for you. Haha, ok ok. And Norm, I see so many posts from you, I should also say thanks for your time here.

K1 (kit zoom)
K3 (vintage 200)
K3 (FA 50) x 4

[normhead]

Thanks for posting, ya, you'd definitely benefit from FF. I just don't have the opportunity to shoot people much anymore, my models grew up and left home.... and of course, when they were home, I was shooting FF and MF, because I was shooting film.

[easyreeder]

Thanks for posting, ya, you'd definitely benefit from FF. I just don't have the opportunity to shoot people much anymore, my models grew up and left home.... and of course, when they were home, I was shooting FF and MF, because I was shooting film

Ha, thanks Norm. Yes, I'm the slightly tech-nerd-dad, which I suspect is a large part of the demographic. I do use the camera for work too. I like to be able to do a little more than everyone else, ha.

[RGlasel]

People don't like to talk video

That's easy to understand, the type of video that can't be produced with a smartphone is way beyond the abilities and available time for at least 9 out of every 10 "enthusiast" photographers, who are the DSLR market these days. High quality optics only make a noticeable difference in videos when the videographer has professional level skills. For the rest of us, a $400 video-only camera or a point & shot is more than adequate to demonstrate our video inadequacies, and very few of us have the time, patience or interest to shot video often enough to outgrow that level of equipment. The reasons why the mass market has become satisfied with phone camera are hyperextended when discussing why DSLR consumers don't seriously consider video photography when making purchase decisions. I know my K-30 can do HD video, and I used it once to record a procession of ants in the forest with abysmal results. Next time, I'll use my wife's point & shoot, assuming I ever try video again.

I'm not the only one

The thing about the Internet is that everyone is isolated, but never alone. The only real way to gauge market size in the Internet Age is to build something and see if enough people buy it to make a profit. Those of us who earn a living in sales and marketing are trying to come to grips with that reality, but everyone who thinks they have the formula to produce winner after winner will eventually be proven wrong.

[ElJamoquio]

Wow. Can I have a full frame camera too, norm?

[mee]

I also don't expect Ricoh would be thinking about rolling out 3 or 4 FF bodies, to completely match Nikon/Canon/Sony's full suite of FF options. I doubt they would be willing to commit the resources needed for something like that. Probably what's most likely would be a single D610/6D grade FF model in essentially a K-3 body.

I'm expecting pretty much this too.. but more somewhere between the D610 and the D800 in features but just under the D610 price and having some K-3 elements thrown in. That is, if they do actually release a digi FF body anytime soon... or ever.. haha

I also think the 645Z gives us a little insight in how Ricoh intends to approach the market... Essentially using the K-3 technology as a base for their other models... while undercutting the market in pricing.