Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Closed Thread
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-11-2014, 04:43 PM   #226
Senior Member
Enrique S Toso's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mendoza - Argentina
Posts: 129
True....still a lot of F number. Was thinking in MF multiplication.

06-12-2014, 09:24 AM - 1 Like   #227
Veteran Member
traderdrew's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Florida
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 570
QuoteOriginally posted by pericombobulation Quote
Why would FF necessarily translate to better AF? Am I missing something? Maybe the D4 simply has a better AF system?
It does. People who buy expensive FF cameras expect to pay for performance. I think it is natural for Nikon and Canon to put better autofocus technology those cameras. The D4 also has a buffer from anywhere to the moon. I can stand next to some of these guys in nice morning and afternoon light and I can get some sharp shots but as soon as that light starts to drop, so does my autofocus performance. Again I am taking about photographing flying birds. I have tossed a lot of near misses. It may not be entirely a K-3 problem. I think the T stops of the Sigma 500mm F/4.5 and the 300mm F/2.8 aren't as good as similar lenses from Nikon and Canon. We all know the more light the lens and send to the camera the better an autofocus system will perform.

I have seen someone else take an EOS-1Dx (another expensive FF) and put a 400mm F/5.6 with a 2X converter on it and go for flight shots. I don't think much of this persons work but to put something like this on my K-3 and expect it to get flying birds is just crazy.

Here is much of the best of my work. I think you would agree I know something about what I am doing:

Andrew Richardson | 500px
06-12-2014, 10:10 AM   #228
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,873
QuoteOriginally posted by Enrique S Toso Quote
Why full frame?? Just because I dont want to buy a lens, thinking "it shall be F2.8 or NOTHING". Think about it...a 300mm F5.6, its actually a 450mm, but F11.2!! It like those cheap F9 lenses in amazon, no matter brand or IQ or whatever.

Maybe it is ok for enthusiast, but im becoming pro, and dont want to go Nikon. Other photographers say "if you were thinking in becoming pro, you should choose the gear wisely", but I fall in love with photography with Pentax, and I consider myself a Pentaxian. Why u dont take care of pro pentaxians?? why you take care just of enthusiasts, or just millonaire enthusiasts (P645Z), but no pro photographers.

We need a full frame body, and pentax need to make lenses for nikon AND canon AND sigma, just like sigma and tamron do.
If you'er becoming a pro, buy the gear you need, not what you love.... that being said, there are lots of pros using Pentax gear... and lots of pros have already ordered the 645Z, many of them wondering why Nikon and Canon aren't taking care of medium format pros. If you can't get what you want in one brand, buy the brand that has what you want. It's not an emotional decision, it's a technical one.

I'm trying to do you a valour here buddy. I've been shooting Pentax 48 years, but because of what I do, there may be a time I have to acquire other gear. If you're a pro, that kind of decision is what keeps you working. If you're stuck on a specific brand, you're not a pro. You're a dabbler.

Your math is a little off there. First of all there is no 300 5.6, there's a 300 2.8, a 300 4.5 and the one in production is a 300 ƒ4. And it's a 450 a ƒ5.6, not 11.3, even if you use wonky DoF math.
06-12-2014, 10:14 AM   #229
Senior Member




Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 101
Awesome pics Andrew!
I just asked the question because I wasn't sure if there was something about FF which would inherently make the camera's focusing system work better. Some cameras may have AF systems which are better than those of other cameras, but this doesn't have anything to do with the size of the sensor, right?

06-12-2014, 10:32 AM - 1 Like   #230
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,873
QuoteOriginally posted by pericombobulation Quote
Awesome pics Andrew!
I just asked the question because I wasn't sure if there was something about FF which would inherently make the camera's focusing system work better. Some cameras may have AF systems which are better than those of other cameras, but this doesn't have anything to do with the size of the sensor, right?
Having handled a D600 with an 85 and my K-3 with a Tamron 90, I'd say no. But, if you're asking, are much more expensive and powerful AF systems available for purchase on FF , then the answer is yes.

The lens will have a lot to do with the AF as well.
My understanding is that nothing beats the Canon ring motors for speed of AF, but you have to buy a body that can use them.

When it comes to range of options available, FF offers everything from a $1600 D610 or 6D to a 7 thousand D4 of some incarnation. No other system offers that kind of range and upgradeability, letting you start small and cheap,and end up big and expensive without changing format. That's one of the strengths of FF.

You can get more, the question is whether or not you will. Paying more for an FF system and not doing anymore than you would have done with an APS-c system doesn't make a lot of sense. Most of us don't want to pay for potential, we want to pay of actual usage.

APS-c offers everything from a $350 D3200 to a $1200 K-3, so lower both on the bottom end and top end. But once you're topped out your APS-c system, there may be things you want in your upgrade path that are not available on APS-c. Just as there will be things in your upgrade to FF where that system is not as functional as APS-c. It all depends on what you're going for.

Last edited by normhead; 06-12-2014 at 10:38 AM.
06-12-2014, 10:34 AM   #231
Veteran Member
traderdrew's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Florida
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 570
QuoteOriginally posted by pericombobulation Quote
Awesome pics Andrew!
I just asked the question because I wasn't sure if there was something about FF which would inherently make the camera's focusing system work better. Some cameras may have AF systems which are better than those of other cameras, but this doesn't have anything to do with the size of the sensor, right?
I really don't know. FF cameras are more efficient with light absorption than APS-C are so I would think this may have some impact on autofocus accuracy. However, I compared photographs with a friend who downloaded photos from a rare wildlife event taken with photographers using APS-Cs and FF cameras. The conclusion was one of the FF users didn't have the right settings and his capture was a bit blurry and the other FF user did better but it just wasn't there. (His 600mm lens could have been to big creating a shallower depth of field at close range). The APS-C camera won when analyzing the photos close up. It's the user as well as the cameras. I don't expect an expensive FF camera to do all the work for me.
06-12-2014, 10:40 AM   #232
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,873
QuoteOriginally posted by traderdrew Quote
I really don't know. FF cameras are more efficient with light absorption than APS-C are so I would think this may have some impact on autofocus accuracy. However, I compared photographs with a friend who downloaded photos from a rare wildlife event taken with photographers using APS-Cs and FF cameras. The conclusion was one of the FF users didn't have the right settings and his capture was a bit blurry and the other FF user did better but it just wasn't there. (His 600mm lens could have been to big creating a shallower depth of field at close range). The APS-C camera won when analyzing the photos close up. It's the user as well as the cameras. I don't expect an expensive FF camera to do all the work for me.
I lost such a competition once to my buddy using a Canon point and shoot, compared to my K-5 and A-400 .The stars just aligned for the smaller format that day. His extra reach and superior CA correction, won the day.
06-12-2014, 11:03 AM   #233
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Blue Ridge Escarpment, North Carolina, US
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,372
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Having handled a D600 with an 85 and my K-3 with a Tamron 90, I'd say no. But, if you're asking, are much more expensive and powerful AF systems available for purchase on FF , then the answer is yes.

The lens will have a lot to do with the AF as well.
My understanding is that nothing beats the Canon ring motors for speed of AF, but you have to buy a body that can use them.

When it comes to range of options available, FF offers everything from a $1600 D610 or 6D to a 7 thousand D4 of some incarnation. No other system offers that kind of range and upgradeability, letting you start small and cheap,and end up big and expensive without changing format. That's one of the strengths of FF.

You can get more, the question is whether or not you will. Paying more for an FF system and not doing anymore than you would have done with an APS-c system doesn't make a lot of sense. Most of us don't want to pay for potential, we want to pay of actual usage.

APS-c offers everything from a $350 D3200 to a $1200 K-3, so lower both on the bottom end and top end. But once you're topped out your APS-c system, there may be things you want in your upgrade path that are not available on APS-c. Just as there will be things in your upgrade to FF where that system is not as functional as APS-c. It all depends on what you're going for.
Norm convinced me-K-3 in box waiting for other attachments. At my age it's all about the size, weight, durability, and practice, practice, practice. It's like waiting to retire, think about what you missed during the waiting. K-5 this week after two years of following this young lady and learning how to manual and AF sequentially with a consumer DA55-300


Last edited by lukulele; 07-08-2015 at 01:20 PM.
06-12-2014, 12:54 PM   #234
Senior Member




Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 101
Can't argue with results like that lukulele!
Osprey?
06-12-2014, 01:35 PM   #235
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Blue Ridge Escarpment, North Carolina, US
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,372
QuoteOriginally posted by pericombobulation Quote
Can't argue with results like that lukulele!
Osprey?
Thanks and yes an Osprey female. Male out over the adjacent river hunting. He'll occasionally come by with a Bream to drop off, and head to a nearby transmission tower, pine grove, or back out to the river.
06-12-2014, 01:50 PM   #236
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,893
You know what makes a lot of sense? Paying less for FF.
06-12-2014, 01:55 PM   #237
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,258
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
You know what makes a lot of sense? Paying less for FF.
You beat that drum a lot. It won't be the case with a Pentax full frame. In addition, your goal seems to be to match the performance of upper end APS-C cameras, not surpass them. Doing better requires faster and more expensive lenses.
06-12-2014, 02:02 PM   #238
Pentaxian
redrockcoulee's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 2,135
QuoteOriginally posted by Enrique S Toso Quote
Why full frame?? Just because I dont want to buy a lens, thinking "it shall be F2.8 or NOTHING". Think about it...a 300mm F5.6, its actually a 450mm, but F11.2!! It like those cheap F9 lenses in amazon, no matter brand or IQ or whatever.

Maybe it is ok for enthusiast, but im becoming pro, and dont want to go Nikon. Other photographers say "if you were thinking in becoming pro, you should choose the gear wisely", but I fall in love with photography with Pentax, and I consider myself a Pentaxian. Why u dont take care of pro pentaxians?? why you take care just of enthusiasts, or just millonaire enthusiasts (P645Z), but no pro photographers.

We need a full frame body, and pentax need to make lenses for nikon AND canon AND sigma, just like sigma and tamron do.
No it is still a 300 5.6 lens. I do not ever try to think of my LF or Hasselblad lenses as being faster than they actually are just because the sensor (film) is larger than 35mm. An external light meter does not have on it anywhere to dial in the size of the format The 645Z is about 3 or 4 K more than the Nikon D4 so do not think that is the difference between pro photographers and millionairs, there are some 645D owners on this forum who more than likely spent more than the new version and it was cheaper than the first pro dlsr cameras.

It is OK to want a FF camera but please none of this false equivalence of lenses or of the cost of going MFD.

I do not need FF. I do have access to and have used a D3 and could if I wanted to borrow a D4 or a D800 but so far have not. I have even sort of talked myself out of upgrading to the K3 for the time being. A caveat is I shoot for myself and have no interest on shooting for others again. The time that Pentax starts making lenses for Nikon and Canon will be the end of them, why buy a Pentax camera if you can use their lenses on a different brand? The bigger question is does Pentax need to sell a FF and since I am not a marketing guru I have no answer to that. Otherwise much like many of the other FF threads this has turned into people dialling in numbers to support their position whatever that may be. But a 5.6 lens is 5.6 on APS-C or 8X10. My 120 remains a 120 on the 4X5 or the 5X7. Those numbers are basic physics, go out and measure them and unless you are wanting a certain shallow depth of field the comparion is meaningless if it was true
06-12-2014, 03:07 PM   #239
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,893
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It won't be the case with a Pentax full frame..
Pentax is smart enough to see where the market is headed.

---------- Post added 06-12-14 at 03:08 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
please none of this false equivalence
No problem. I only use true equivalence.

---------- Post added 06-12-14 at 03:09 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
unless you are wanting a certain shallow depth of field the comparion is meaningless if it was true
It is both true and applicable outside of comparisons of DOF.
06-13-2014, 12:12 AM   #240
Pentaxian
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Pentax is smart enough to see where the market is headed.

---------- Post added 06-12-14 at 03:08 PM ----------



.
Actually, i think the mixing of Ricoh and Pentax staff may help in the decision making and forecasting.

Time will tell, but Canikon may be suffering from too much group think. Too much reliance on the big guns to save the day, IMO. Of course, what do i know, they are both still making a profit. Interesting times!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
24x36mm, asp-c, bit, camera, canon, control, dof, equipment, f/2.8, ff, film, format, frame, full-frame, lenses, lot, medium, pentax, people, photographer, pm, resolution, sensor, skill, thread, thread title, view
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax ff and why do I need that. soled Welcomes and Introductions 6 02-20-2015 03:50 AM
Filters, do you really need them? peterjcb Pentax DSLR Discussion 17 01-16-2014 06:10 PM
Do i really need a FF DSLR simple mick Pentax DSLR Discussion 21 12-26-2012 07:02 PM
Do you really want a FF??? i83N Photographic Industry and Professionals 48 10-09-2012 01:52 PM
Why Do You Want FF? tkj365 Photographic Industry and Professionals 193 09-26-2012 11:09 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:51 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top