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04-25-2014, 02:50 PM   #106
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04-30-2014, 04:39 PM   #107
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WHY NOT?

Sony has used a ff sized sensor for their a7's ... From this year on to the next , production amount of those sensors will grow higher, so ricoh-pentax will be able to buy those sensors for a reasonable price.

Why not? They never say they will not do it. In every interview the representatives say something like: "Yeah, no not now. I have got that in my pocket and it is mine and mine alone to decide when I will draw it out."

My big guess... When sensor pricing is to the likings of the bosses that do some economical mathematics, the Pentax FF K-Mount Body(ies) will be here.

Regards, Peter!
04-30-2014, 06:17 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
I think it will only if you crop the FF shot to APS-C. But the area that lost when cropping (which will be almost 60% of the actual FF picture*) makes the FF picture, uncropped, look very different from the APS-C picture. At least that's what I see on my viewfinder (95% coverage on K20D, 92% coverage on ZX-M but still - you can see a change in 35mm vs 55mm lens). Also - let's ignore the bokeh just for this discussion. I could have said a 18mm APS-C shot vs a 28mm FF shot on hyperfocal at f/11 or so, to get all the background in the picture in focus.

And remember - there's no cropping in my example. I don't want to crop down FF to APS-C. That is not the intent of having a FF camera.
If you take a 16mm photo on APS-C at f4 and compare it to a 24mm photo at f5.6 on FF you won't see much difference. There will be some difference, depending on the quality of the lenses, amount of distortion, etc, but they will look the same. A lens like the DA 15 limited will actually have less distortion than a lot of 24-70 full frame zooms would have at the wide end. Distortion is a property of the lens, not of the format. If you shoot full frame and position people towards the edges and are shooting wide, they will tend to look a little stretched and odd.
05-01-2014, 08:58 AM   #109
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I wasn't talking about distortion as in barrel or pin-cushion distortion... and didn't even use that term as far as I remember, and certainly not in that quote... I was talking about compression of the background, which is a type of distortion as well...

But now I know I wasn't really making a valid comparison at all. So nevermind the thought

05-04-2014, 10:49 AM   #110
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This type of question also applies to aps-c users:
Why do you need aps-c over micro-four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensor?
Micro-four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensors nowadays has great qualities and abilities, and you can create great photographs with it, but why did you prefer aps-c?
The opinion/argument on the preference of an aps-c over smaller sensors would be the same when it comes on preference on FF over an aps-c...

Last edited by richard balonglong; 05-04-2014 at 10:56 AM.
05-04-2014, 11:25 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by richard balonglong Quote
This type of question also applies to aps-c users:
Why do you need aps-c over micro-four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensor?
Micro-four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensors nowadays has great qualities and abilities, and you can create great photographs with it, but why did you prefer aps-c?
The opinion/argument on the preference of an aps-c over smaller sensors would be the same when it comes on preference on FF over an aps-c...
Well, I happen to have bought Pentax and they don't offer a micro four thirds camera, although those are obviously quite nice and offer good quality. Below four thirds, there is quite a drop in dyanmic range and performance at high iso.

I think you buy based on glass and go from there.
05-04-2014, 11:34 AM - 1 Like   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by richard balonglong Quote
This type of question also applies to aps-c users:
Why do you need aps-c over micro-four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensor?
Micro-four-thirds or 1/2.3" sensors nowadays has great qualities and abilities, and you can create great photographs with it, but why did you prefer aps-c?
The opinion/argument on the preference of an aps-c over smaller sensors would be the same when it comes on preference on FF over an aps-c...
Not if you consider the trade off, of IQ for portability. Every enthusiast wants to use the best camera possible without going into bankruptcy or carrying a barbell. For each of us, there is that magic point at which the portability and IQ intersect to give us the best option for what we do. If you're an MF dude, it's MF, if you're a 4/3 dude it's 4/3. There is no argument to be made. You are what you are. For a guy where 4/3 represents the best set of compromises it's pointless arguing he should move up to APS-c for IQ. He's already made that decision. Same arguing an APS-c guy should shoot FF, or an FF guy should shoot MF.


There is the whole insulting thing going on.... where the person commenting explains why the format they shoot is better, which ignores the choices taken into account when the person being addressed made their decision. Every format has it's strengths and compromises. Most people pushing one format over another aren't much better than the proselytizers that come to your door looking to convert you to their religion. They don't care what's right for you. They tell you what's right for them, and for some reason don't seem to have the capacity to understand, people are different, and what's right for you isn't right for everybody.

QuoteQuote:
The opinion/argument on the preference of an aps-c over smaller sensors would be the same when it comes on preference on FF over an aps-c...
Both arguments are wrong... it's none of your business what someone else shoots. It only matter what's right for you. Even if you're the only person with the right set of shooting preferences to maximize your talent shooting APS-c, anyone who tells you you'd be better off shooting FF or 4/3 is wrong. SO if you mean, the arguments are equally offensive, ya they are.
05-04-2014, 12:00 PM   #113
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This youtube movie says it all, and shows you why you want or don't want a full frame camera.

But the fact is that Pentax doesn't have full frame camera's and the people who are Pentax-only will defend that choice with every argument they can find. And if somewhere in time Pentax would release a full frame camera, the people who first defended that there is no reason to have one, will drop those arguments and turn around. Don't be afraid, that's pure human.

05-04-2014, 12:16 PM - 2 Likes   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by panzerfaustnl Quote
This youtube movie says it all, and shows you why you want or don't want a full frame camera. Canon 6D, 5D Mark III, 7D, T3i, 600D, 5D Mark II ULTIMATE Review and Comparison - YouTube

But the fact is that Pentax doesn't have full frame camera's and the people who are Pentax-only will defend that choice with every argument they can find. And if somewhere in time Pentax would release a full frame camera, the people who first defended that there is no reason to have one, will drop those arguments and turn around. Don't be afraid, that's pure human.
Anyone who has a Pentax can buy a D800 and many have. And many who have will tell you they still use their Pentax quite a bit. My guess is most who are happy with APS-c will stay with APS-c. Most who won't buy a D800 because of the cost, won't buy a Pentax FF because of the cost. This endless speculation is pointless. Why would anyone drop 3k on an FF just because it's there? You just don't get it. FFs are affordable, anyone who really wants one, has one. Those of us who are Pentax only don't have to defend our choice. It's our choice.... if we care to explain it, then that's our business. We may explain it. But it's not offensive. The fact that it's offensive for people to assume we haven't done our homework when we made our choice, or don't know as much as they do, because of the choice we made, that's offensive. Saying Pentax users defend their choice based on lack of information would be enough for me to boot you right off of here if this were my personal board. Because, honestly, I probably know more than you, and I don't care to entertain your opinion of my choice. I honestly don't care what you think about my personal choice. It's irrelevant, to you and to me. Discuss your own choices if you want. leave "the people who are Pentax only" out of it. You represent them poorly and they have every right to be offended by your representation of them.

It seems to be really hard for some people to comprehend.. Full Frame is not the be all and end all of digital cameras. There are good reasons why the vast majority of DSLR users, don't want one. There are good reasons that with the advent of the 6D and D610, more reasonably priced digital options, FF still isn' making big inroads into the APS-c market. You need to understand why that is. Nikon didn't, that's why they have a ton of D600s they're trying to dump on the Chinese market.

Last edited by normhead; 05-04-2014 at 12:23 PM.
05-04-2014, 12:25 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by richard balonglong Quote
The opinion/argument on the preference of an aps-c over smaller sensors would be the same when it comes on preference on FF over an aps-c...
It's not really the same from a practical standpoint in Pentax land where many of the lenses we're already using on APS-C would work great on a full frame, especially all the legacy glass out there. I think this plays a role for many in the hankering for a Pentax FF.

If you were starting fresh, then sure. I know it was a toss up between an Olympus 4/3 and a Pentax aps-c when I was getting my first dslr. I was upgrading from a tiny sensor P&S and I went with the biggest I could practically afford with the hope that one day there'd be a Pentax FF to suit my wallet but also knowing the difference wasn't huge enough that I'd be devastated if it never happened.

The sensor size of the system you choose is always a compromise, everyone has to find the compromise they're comfortable with. But I think APS-C/FF will always be joined like no other two formats due to the large lens cross-over.
05-04-2014, 01:38 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by panzerfaustnl Quote
This youtube movie says it all, and shows you why you want or don't want a full frame camera.

But the fact is that Pentax doesn't have full frame camera's and the people who are Pentax-only will defend that choice with every argument they can find. And if somewhere in time Pentax would release a full frame camera, the people who first defended that there is no reason to have one, will drop those arguments and turn around. Don't be afraid, that's pure human.
I don't think so.

Not everyone needs full frame. It is just that simple. If you look at SLR sales as a whole, only about 6 percent of them are full frame -- and that's not including cell phone cameras. A K30 currently sells for 450 dollars and it is a nice camera for that money. The reality is that APS-C are "good enough" for most photographers. Most of the professional photographers in my area are continuing to use APS-C cameras, despite the possibility that they could upgrade. They are getting good results with their current gear, clients are happy and it is a cost they just don't need right now.

Nikon and Canon have deliberately skimped on APS-C features in order to drive photographers to full frame. I wonder if Nikon had a camera that had the same specifications as the K3, if it wouldn't end up stealing sales from the D600, particularly if it was priced around a thousand dollars. Plenty of people, Thom Hogan included, have mourned the absence of a D400.

If Pentax does come out with a full frame camera, I hope it would end the arguments on the forum. Hopefully no one would say something like "That would have been a great shot if you had just used a K1." People are still taking great shots with *ist-Ds and K10s and no one tells them that they need a K3 to get great results...
05-04-2014, 02:15 PM - 1 Like   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Anyone who has a Pentax can buy a D800 and many have. And many who have will tell you they still use their Pentax quite a bit. My guess is most who are happy with APS-c will stay with APS-c. Most who won't buy a D800 because of the cost, won't buy a Pentax FF because of the cost. This endless speculation is pointless. Why would anyone drop 3k on an FF just because it's there? You just don't get it. FFs are affordable, anyone who really wants one, has one. Those of us who are Pentax only don't have to defend our choice. It's our choice.... if we care to explain it, then that's our business. We may explain it. But it's not offensive. The fact that it's offensive for people to assume we haven't done our homework when we made our choice, or don't know as much as they do, because of the choice we made, that's offensive. Saying Pentax users defend their choice based on lack of information would be enough for me to boot you right off of here if this were my personal board. Because, honestly, I probably know more than you, and I don't care to entertain your opinion of my choice. I honestly don't care what you think about my personal choice. It's irrelevant, to you and to me. Discuss your own choices if you want. leave "the people who are Pentax only" out of it. You represent them poorly and they have every right to be offended by your representation of them.

It seems to be really hard for some people to comprehend.. Full Frame is not the be all and end all of digital cameras. There are good reasons why the vast majority of DSLR users, don't want one. There are good reasons that with the advent of the 6D and D610, more reasonably priced digital options, FF still isn' making big inroads into the APS-c market. You need to understand why that is. Nikon didn't, that's why they have a ton of D600s they're trying to dump on the Chinese market.
I don't know how to tell you it, the problem is also that English is not my mother language, but I will try. This is a Pentax forum so that's why I said Pentax only. But you see it on Canon forums, Nikon forums, you see it on every branded forums. And believe me, I have (to mention only the digital brands, analogue I have much more) Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sigma, Kodak, Panasonic and Leica camera's and I am member of many forums who are dedicated to one of those brands. And everywhere you see similar discussions.

And everywhere they defend there choice because they can't look beyond that choice and feel even offended in the fact that you didn't buy the same camera as them. I have a Nikon D7100 and a lot of people who own a D7000 feel that they need to defend there choice of buying a D7000 ( arguments; I don't need 24 megapixels, you can only use top lenses on the D7100, it's expensive etc etc). Only when they walk into the borders of their system they are willing to look beyond their camera and then they drop all of their arguments against the D7100 or other camera.
And I believe that people who are fortunate enough to have a Pentax are humans and that they don't differ to other people, so that the same psychological borders are working here. Pentax has no FF to offer and there are enough borders to go FF because then they have to choose for an other brand of camera. So they have to sell everything and need a hefty amount of money to buy at least the same as what they have now. That's enough to throw up some arguments not to want a full frame camera.

But the whole 'do I need a full frame camera' is an odd discussion. When I bought my first SLR, a Canon EOS 500, there was at SLR level no other choice. All SLR where full frame, even my Asahi Pentax from the 60's is full frame. When the digital camera's where starting to get popular I didn't knew that there was a difference. That compact camera's had a different size sensor than the DSLR, because in the analogue time most of the compact camera's where simply full frame. And the fact that they have is just because of the fact that the market for a compact with a full frame (like the sony DSC-RX1) is too small to survive. Would the cost of a full frame sensor be a non-factor, the complete discussion wouldn't exist. Than every digital camera had full frame or bigger.

But I don't want to argument against a Pentax camera, in the contrary, I want one, that's why I entered the competition to win one. I don't have any digital Pentax and I am curious if I can use the lenses I have for my analogue camera's direct on the new digital one. And If I don't win one, I buy one at the end of the year, probably the K3.

A few of my camera's



---------- Post added 05-04-14 at 09:16 PM ----------

hmm I can't edit my posts, so in addition of my other post:

Oh the reason why Nikon dumps those D600's is because they are replaced in the west by D610's because of the oil problem.
05-04-2014, 02:30 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by panzerfaustnl Quote
I don't know how to tell you it, the problem is also that English is not my mother language, but I will try. This is a Pentax forum so that's why I said Pentax only. But you see it on Canon forums, Nikon forums, you see it on every branded forums. And believe me, I have (to mention only the digital brands, analogue I have much more) Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sigma, Kodak, Panasonic and Leica camera's and I am member of many forums who are dedicated to one of those brands. And everywhere you see similar discussions.

And everywhere they defend there choice because they can't look beyond that choice and feel even offended in the fact that you didn't buy the same camera as them. I have a Nikon D7100 and a lot of people who own a D7000 feel that they need to defend there choice of buying a D7000 ( arguments; I don't need 24 megapixels, you can only use top lenses on the D7100, it's expensive etc etc). Only when they walk into the borders of their system they are willing to look beyond their camera and then they drop all of their arguments against the D7100 or other camera.
And I believe that people who are fortunate enough to have a Pentax are humans and that they don't differ to other people, so that the same psychological borders are working here. Pentax has no FF to offer and there are enough borders to go FF because then they have to choose for an other brand of camera. So they have to sell everything and need a hefty amount of money to buy at least the same as what they have now. That's enough to throw up some arguments not to want a full frame camera.

But the whole 'do I need a full frame camera' is an odd discussion. When I bought my first SLR, a Canon EOS 500, there was at SLR level no other choice. All SLR where full frame, even my Asahi Pentax from the 60's is full frame. When the digital camera's where starting to get popular I didn't knew that there was a difference. That compact camera's had a different size sensor than the DSLR, because in the analogue time most of the compact camera's where simply full frame. And the fact that they have is just because of the fact that the market for a compact with a full frame (like the sony DSC-RX1) is too small to survive. Would the cost of a full frame sensor be a non-factor, the complete discussion wouldn't exist. Than every digital camera had full frame or bigger.

But I don't want to argument against a Pentax camera, in the contrary, I want one, that's why I entered the competition to win one. I don't have any digital Pentax and I am curious if I can use the lenses I have for my analogue camera's direct on the new digital one. And If I don't win one, I buy one at the end of the year, probably the K3.

A few of my camera's



---------- Post added 05-04-14 at 09:16 PM ----------

hmm I can't edit my posts, so in addition of my other post:

Oh the reason why Nikon dumps those D600's is because they are replaced in the west by D610's because of the oil problem.
I think there is a little different environment on Pentax Forums. There is still a lot of emphasis on gear, but there really aren't a whole lot of folks bashing older gear. There are honest questions about whether a K3 is really better than a k5 or, things like that, but I think it is understood that most of the time the reason a photograph succeeds or doesn't lies behind the viewfinder and not in front of it.

Last edited by Rondec; 05-04-2014 at 04:25 PM. Reason: corrected grammar
05-04-2014, 02:49 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by oxidized Quote
Unless you are a professional photographer I think it's safe to say you never truly "need" a camera
Artists, animators, dentists, publicists, ornithologists, astronomers, microbiologists (and probably any form of science you can think of) all need cameras, or photographs at least.
05-04-2014, 03:00 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think there is a little different environment on Pentax Forums. There is still a lot of emphasis on gear, but there really isn't a whole lot of folks bashing older gear. There are honest questions about whether a K3 is really better than a k5 or, things like that, but I think it is understood that most of the time the reason a photograph succeeds or doesn't lies behind the viewfinder and not in front of it.


".....the reason a photograph succeeds or doesn't lies behind the viewfinder and not in front of it...".

I've quoted this bit as I feel it sums up things quite well. This quote mirrors my own personal belief, developed after many years of photography and using different formats.


I do believe that once a photographer is using a certain level of camera equipment.... such as.... a Nikon D300s, Nikon D600, Nikon D 610, Canon 7D, 6D, 5D2, Pentax K-5 series, K-3 is essentially that in the end....how good the photograph is...is dependent more on photographer skill and lighting, than sensor size.

I think I've said that before, somewhere and if I have, forgive me as I'm an old guy. I maybe forgetful....but I am consistent.
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