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04-18-2014, 12:28 PM - 2 Likes   #1
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Do you really need a FF ? Why ?

I have 35mm film SLR's, Rangefinders (Leica), medium format film (Mamiya and 3 Mamiya-Sekor lenses), 3 ASP-C bodies (K10D, K-m , K-5)....about a dozen digital Pentax lenses.

I take wildlife , vintage car, landscape, some portraits. I blow up my work to 8 X 10, sometimes 11 X 14. I've got friends with FF DSLR's....ie; Canon 5D 11.

But I can't see differences between my measly ASP-C bodies and FF at these enlargement sizes.

I frequent Pentax, Canon and Nikon forums, check out photographs from other photographers regularly. I can't see significant differences between say a Canon 6D and a 7D.....a Nikon D300s and a D 600...or any of these between a K-5 series or a K-3.


Do I want a full frame DSLR ? Well...came close to buying a new old stock Canon 5D2...when the 5D3 came out and Canon were clearing out the 5D2's at good prices.

But I didn't.

I think once one becomes proficient with excellent camera equipment, like the stuff I've mentioned...I don't think it makes much difference whether one is using a fine ASP-C (like a K-5/K-3, D300s, 7D)...or a D600, D610, 6D or 5D2.

I think the important factor in excellent photography....with this equipment boils down to skill level, glass and lighting...rather than whether your camera uses a full frame sensor or a ASP-C sensor.

I've been an avid photographer for decades (since '68) and spent part of my career earning money as a photographer, but will readily admit that I'm no Karsh or Eisenstadt.

I do think that skill, expertise, lighting, decent glass...are more significant...than necessarily, more expensive equipment.

I do think that for some...not all...but many...that it's more what you want (FF) that becomes the priority, than what you need ?

That's my view. What's your view ?

Do you really need a full frame camera ? Will it improve your photography and how/why ?

04-18-2014, 12:45 PM - 5 Likes   #2
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As I understand it, from what I've read on the forums here, the biggest reason people want a 24x36mm sensor is the shallower DOF it provides so they can take portraits with only the nose, or only one eye in focus.

It's possible I misunderstood something, though. confused2


04-18-2014, 12:46 PM - 3 Likes   #3
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want, not need.

Do you need your K-5? What's wrong with that K-m?

Very few people need a DSLR or MILC in the first place, aps-c or FF. Very few people need Limited lenses, when regular FA, DA or even kit lenses will get the job done. Very few people or families need any car more powerful or larger than a Toyota Corolla.

FF, with available lenses, will bring you a bit more noise control, a bit more DOF control (if that's important to you) and a bit better DR up from base-ISO. In addition other things can come with FF bodies, like better AF, but that's because the manufacturer puts more in their 'flagship' when higher margins are available. Some people look forward to those things as well.

It's all a sliding scale of want. It's disingenuous to say "I want my K5, and that's acceptable. But your want for a K-mount FF body (or 645Z body) is not."


.

---------- Post added 04-18-14 at 01:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
As I understand it, from what I've read on the forums here, the biggest reason people want a 24x36mm sensor is the shallower DOF it provides so they can take portraits with only the nose, or only one eye in focus.

It's possible I misunderstood something, though. :confused2:


Arrrgg!!

Last edited by jsherman999; 04-18-2014 at 12:54 PM.
04-18-2014, 12:47 PM   #4
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Okay, okay, I'm done.

04-18-2014, 12:53 PM   #5
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Your premise is correct. Most photographers really don't need a full frame DSLR. In fact for sports and wildlife it's a disadvantage. Where FF comes in handy is when high quality professional prints are needed, e.g., for magazines or art prints. The only real difference is in FOV so for wide angle use FF is an advantage for architecture and landscape though only if you're printing really large. It's also a whole lot less expensive! Having said that I find it intriguing and may give it a try but only by renting. Just my .
04-18-2014, 12:58 PM   #6
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One entity does *need* it

One more thing I should add - Pentax may very well need FF, at least if they plan to continue with K-mount. But that's a subject for another thread.

Last edited by jsherman999; 04-18-2014 at 01:07 PM.
04-18-2014, 01:02 PM   #7
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Haven't I read this thread title before somewhere?

Les, you wouldn't be trolling would you? Particularly since you already have an answer and a firmly held opinion based on your personal experience, that being that you do the same work regardless of format.

I wish I could say the same, but I can't* and difference is not related to print resolution. (Resolution, BTW, is highly overrated.)


Steve


* I shoot everything from my phone cam (sensor the smaller than my pinky fingernail) up to 4x5 film.

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-18-2014 at 01:08 PM.
04-18-2014, 01:13 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Do you need your K-5? What's wrong with that K-m?

Very few people need a DSLR or MILC in the first place, aps-c or FF. Very few people need Limited lenses, when regular FA, DA or even kit lenses will get the job done. Very few people or families need any car more powerful or larger than a Toyota Corolla.

I do.

We have a Toyota Matrix...which is like a Toyota Corolla station wagon. I have trouble fitting into it. I'm 6' 3" + and 245 lbs...with a bad hockey knee. My shoulders are wide and hit the side window, I can't stretch my bad hockey leg out and boy does that knee hurt as a result. I find I need a big car for my 'full frame' ....so my wife drives the Toyota....I drive our big six passenger Buick sedan. I need the Buick...I fit into it comfortable...I can stretch my leg in it...when I crack the throttle...that sucker moves out with it's big engine.......I like that.

Although I have to admit...I want it too.


FF, with available lenses, will bring you a bit more noise control, a bit more DOF control (if that's important to you) and a bit better DR up from base-ISO. In addition other things can come with FF bodies, like better AF, but that's because the manufacturer puts more in their 'flagship' when higher margins are available. Some people look forward to those things as well.

I find my DOF not bad with my K's, especially my Limited primes.

It's all a sliding scale of want. It's disingenuous to say "I want my K5, and that's acceptable. But your want for a K-mount FF body (or 645Z body) is not."


.

---------- Post added 04-18-14 at 01:46 PM ----------



Arrrgg!!


It sounds like most of the reason one may want an FF...is because they want one. I wouldn't say necessarily "...Arrggg ...".....to this though. If you want something...even though you may not need it.....get it...if you have the budget. I bought and used medium format back in the film days...mostly because I wanted too. I agree, nothing wrong with that.



Last edited by lesmore49; 04-18-2014 at 01:32 PM.
04-18-2014, 01:13 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Do you need your K-5? What's wrong with that K-m?

Very few people need a DSLR or MILC in the first place, aps-c or FF. Very few people need Limited lenses, when regular FA, DA or even kit lenses will get the job done. Very few people or families need any car more powerful or larger than a Toyota Corolla.

FF, with available lenses, will bring you a bit more noise control, a bit more DOF control (if that's important to you) and a bit better DR up from base-ISO. In addition other things can come with FF bodies, like better AF, but that's because the manufacturer puts more in their 'flagship' when higher margins are available. Some people look forward to those things as well.

It's all a sliding scale of want. It's disingenuous to say "I want my K5, and that's acceptable. But your want for a K-mount FF body (or 645Z body) is not."
Unless you are a professional photographer I think it's safe to say you never truly "need" a camera
04-18-2014, 01:19 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Haven't I read this thread title before somewhere?

Les, you wouldn't be trolling would you? Particularly since you already have an answer and a firmly held opinion based on your personal experience, that being that you do the same work regardless of format.


I wish I could say the same, but I can't* and difference is not related to print resolution. (Resolution, BTW, is highly overrated.)


Steve


* I shoot everything from my phone cam (sensor the smaller than my pinky fingernail) up to 4x5 film.
I don't troll...period. If you don't want to respond to this thread...then don't, but don't throw allegations around about someone you don't know.




.

---------- Post added 04-18-14 at 03:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
One more thing I should add - Pentax may very well need FF, at least if they plan to continue with K-mount. But that's a subject for another thread.
I agree. I think that Pentax in order to be competitive...will need to enter the FF market. I'm not sure if they haven't left it too late as Nikon and Canon are well established in FF.

---------- Post added 04-18-14 at 03:28 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by wtlwdwgn Quote
Your premise is correct. Most photographers really don't need a full frame DSLR. In fact for sports and wildlife it's a disadvantage. Where FF comes in handy is when high quality professional prints are needed, e.g., for magazines or art prints. The only real difference is in FOV so for wide angle use FF is an advantage for architecture and landscape though only if you're printing really large. It's also a whole lot less expensive! Having said that I find it intriguing and may give it a try but only by renting. Just my .

I agree with you. I used to work in the publishing business and for some features we used medium format, for the reasons you have indicated.

As mentioned before I too find FF intriguing and seriously considered a 5D2 awhile ago. Back in my film days I used my Mamiya medium format a lot.

Last edited by lesmore49; 04-18-2014 at 01:25 PM.
04-18-2014, 01:30 PM - 1 Like   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
I apologize for being disingenuous. Usually I'm not.

It sounds like most of the reason one may want an FF...is because they want one. I wouldn't say necessarily "...Arrggg ...".....to this though. If you want something...even though you may not need it.....get it...if you have the budget.
I was saying 'arrgg!' to Parralax's post that people want a FF camera to 'get one eye in focus.' He knows that cliche bothers me

Aps-c : the format you need for getting both eyes in focus!


Last edited by jsherman999; 04-18-2014 at 01:35 PM.
04-18-2014, 01:33 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I was saying 'arrgg!' to Parralax's post that people want a FF camera to 'get one eye in focus.' He knows that cliche bothers me
Sorry about that. Think I got the quotes mixed up.

---------- Post added 04-18-14 at 03:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I was saying 'arrgg!' to Parralax's post that people want a FF camera to 'get one eye in focus.' He knows that cliche bothers me

Aps-c : the format you need for getting both eyes in focus!
Now that is a great photograph.
04-18-2014, 02:16 PM   #13
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I also use MF (Hasselblad & 6x7) and 35 film cameras, and a Leica M9 FF, etc. and I agree image quality of a good APS-C like a K-5 is not the issue. I don't care about super-shallow DOF either.
The real issue for me is my collection of SMC-M lenses which I would like to use at their normal FOV. My 20, 24, 28 35 SMC-M lenses aren't really wide angles on my K-5. Also, the K-5 viewfinder is so small and tunnel-like it's miserable for manual focus with these lenses compared to any of my old film SLRs, even with a good screen.
Yes, the common answer is to buy a new fleet of autofocus lenses for APS-C. But I'm happy with the lenses I have, if only I had a FF digital that would use them properly.
My collection of old Leica lenses (from 1934-1970s) work on my M9 exactly like on a film Leica, but with more detail at high enlargements. I'd like the same for my old Pentax lenses.
I had planned to buy a Sony A7 when it was announced, but financial needs came up. I still plan to rent one and see how it does, since Pentax has already said they won't do a de-crippled mount. It's not an SLR, but if the EFV is good enough I could live with it.
04-18-2014, 04:05 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
I don't troll...period. If you don't want to respond to this thread...then don't, but don't throw allegations around about someone you don't know.
It was a question, not an allegation. Thank you for the answer.


Steve
04-18-2014, 04:18 PM   #15
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I don't "need" a 35mm camera. No one "needs" any camera unless you make your living off of it. However, I want a 35mm camera.

Eliminating the background entirely from closeup/long shots? Any camera can render a background unrecognizable if you get close enough/long enough. The difference then becomes having a obscured, unrecognizable background vs. having an obliterated background. I don't care about that in the least.

I want a 35mm camera for one thing: fast wide angles. What would I use them for? Wide angle subject isolation and wide-field astrophotography/night landscapes. There are no APS-C or m4/3 lenses in existence that can match the DOF or light gathering power of 24mm f/1.4 or 35mm f/1.4 on 35mm, and yes it makes a big difference in these types of photography. In the case of the K-mount it is actually physically impossible to make an APS-C lens that does (K-mount dimensions limit a conventional lens to ~f/1.1 or slower).

Last edited by Cannikin; 04-18-2014 at 04:24 PM.
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