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04-24-2014, 10:00 AM   #16
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Or maybe APS-H will be the glory this year for K-mount

04-24-2014, 10:09 AM   #17
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I wouldn't read too much into this either way. Still, rumors seem to indicate that full frame is coming out in the not too distant future. One must understand that marketing material for the 645z is not written in such a way as to give an indication of the future of Ricoh, but merely to indicate how they think the camera stacks up against current Canon and Nikon offerings.
04-24-2014, 10:24 AM   #18
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I personally don't mind if pentax doesnt make a FF camera...IF they make some more fast primes. They can really own the APS-C segment if they made a more broad appealing lens line-up meaning fast lenses AND small/cute. Unfortunately, they seem to be concerned primarily with what Japan wants i.e. small and cute.
04-24-2014, 10:25 AM   #19
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I don't read too much into it no matter how someone view the advantages of MF over FF even when the cost is brought down a little closer, it is not the same. When you buy the 645Z camera, you still have to buy the lenses. What they are saying, if you switch to Canikony for FF, you have to buy new lenses for their mounts, then might as well get the 645Z to stay in the same brand. I still believe that it will come soon once the chips are falling into places where most of technical and economic issues are worked out to their satisfaction.

04-24-2014, 10:31 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I have not seen the latest road map. The mystery 70-200 would be of interest regardless of whether they make a FF camera!
Here's the link:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/products/lens/images/K_Mount_Lens.pdf
04-24-2014, 11:18 AM   #21
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may be they will not release a FF camera until they have the 70-200 lens ready....
04-24-2014, 12:03 PM   #22
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If you look at the lack of FF from the perspective of "I want full frame, why don't you have it" it does seem aggravating that Ricoh has not released one yet.

But if you look at if from the perspective of "How do I improve Pentax market share, increase the number of retail stores carrying our product and make money" then I do not think we are ready for FF yet.

I also think the 645z was/is brilliant. It is classic guerrilla marketing, never hit where the enemy is strong, always go where they are not, always do what they cannot not. I've been in three camera shops this month, none carried any modern Pentax, all had a selection of 645 gear. All had customers who use Pentax 645 film gear. None of those stores had any reason or motivation to add yet another FF or APS-C camera to shelves already full of stuff. But there is no other affordable medium format camera out there. Think they might add a 645z to that medium format case that has been gathering dust? I certainly do. And once they have made the decision to buy any Pentax gear it is not such a big leap to convince them to add a FF or Aps-C model to the line up.

Ricoh (or any manufacturer) does not target the retail consumer, they target the retailers that sell their product. Right now Ricoh could care less what we think or want, they need to convince retailers large and small that there is a place on the shelf for cameras with a Pentax logo on them.
04-24-2014, 12:54 PM   #23
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They need to sell the 645z now. They can sell the FF when they actually have it. It's that simple. Why try to sell something you don't have?


Today they have only the 645z to compete with other's FFs; tomorrow they will have both.

04-24-2014, 01:02 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
Read the newly added section on 645z:PENTAX 645Z Stories by Engineers / PENTAX 645Z Special site | RICOH IMAGING

especially section 03:
The highest ISO sensitivity of PENTAX 645Z is ISO 204800, which is 128 times of the sensitivity of PENTAX 645D, ISO 1600. Namely, as the competitor, we see 35-mm full frame cameras rather than medium format cameras offered by other companies. Though it is just a matter of sensitivity, we always had the stringent stance in developing the [standard sensitivity] instead of the [extended sensitivity]. Ultimately, the judge is human eyes. We see the border line between the permissible range and the impermissible range. A big chance to show our skill was found in moving this line to expand the permissible range. Consequently, we imagine that consumers will be able to shoot objects which could not be shot so far or objects of which shooting had to be given up. With this model, we expect that pictures nobody has ever seen can be taken one after another. It is right that new pictures can be taken with a high-sensitivity camera. Moreover, if such a high-sensitivity camera is used with a low-sensitivity setting, the low-sensitivity image quality is very excellent because the camera has the remaining capacity to the upper limit.

They put 645Z as a like-135 full-frame but can offer much more (of course). If you read the whole intro to the 645z maybe you feel the same. They don't bother with 135, they basically said, we have MF, why bother 135!

That's it.
Interesting theory- hopefully, as others have said, it's just a marketing trick to get FF users to consider the 645Z.

With that said, given the fact that Pentax's lineup seems quite strong at the moment (with a complete lineup of APS-C cameras plus the 645Z), I doubt they will launch a FF this year as rumors had hinted at.

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04-24-2014, 01:54 PM   #25
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There's no doubt that the 645Z is an attractive proposition for some professionals and for some enthusiasts who can afford it. In this discussion, there are two aspects that need to be teased out further to deal with the OP's proposition, and they are both concerned with marketing, in the broader sense of the term.

The first is the often-mentioned question of which of the professional market sub-segments a particular camera will sell into. Clearly, the 645Z will have broader appeal than its predecessor, but the projected production figures spoken of in other threads don't indicate that it is expected to push 35FF aside any time soon. So, I think we can fairly safely assume that it will appeal principally to landscape and studio photographers, as did the 645D. The extended sensor sensitivity means that it will be more versatile in low light work, but on the whole, it will probably be seen as a 645D replacement, rather than a game-changer for most current 35FF users, even though it will attract some who are looking to gain an edge over the competition, probably in premium wedding photography, at least at first.

The second is the matter of marketing the range of Pentax cameras. It's a fairly limited argument to say that there doesn't need to be a 35FF body because the 645Z (and even, in some respects, the D) provides a technically superior sensor, because at least some other elements of the camera have to be superior as well. The technical aspects also mask the notion of value proposition, which is what drives choice in the professional market. If the 645Z was being sold in the near vicinity of, say, the D800's price, then it would stack up fairly well as a value proposition for a substantial slice of that camera's potential buying group, but at more than twice the D800's price it doesn't.

Those are the two considerations that counter the proposition that there won't ever be a Pentax 35FF camera, in my opinion. The lack of suitable badged lenses is a furphy – you aren't going to hear about those until a body is announced. Even the infamous contention about IBIS incompatibility with a K-mount 35FF body seems to have subsided, so I'm at a loss to understand why the lens issue hasn't done likewise.
04-24-2014, 02:27 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
There's no doubt that the 645Z is an attractive proposition for some professionals and for some enthusiasts who can afford it. In this discussion, there are two aspects that need to be teased out further to deal with the OP's proposition, and they are both concerned with marketing, in the broader sense of the term.

The first is the often-mentioned question of which of the professional market sub-segments a particular camera will sell into. Clearly, the 645Z will have broader appeal than its predecessor, but the projected production figures spoken of in other threads don't indicate that it is expected to push 35FF aside any time soon. So, I think we can fairly safely assume that it will appeal principally to landscape and studio photographers, as did the 645D. The extended sensor sensitivity means that it will be more versatile in low light work, but on the whole, it will probably be seen as a 645D replacement, rather than a game-changer for most current 35FF users, even though it will attract some who are looking to gain an edge over the competition, probably in premium wedding photography, at least at first.

The second is the matter of marketing the range of Pentax cameras. It's a fairly limited argument to say that there doesn't need to be a 35FF body because the 645Z (and even, in some respects, the D) provides a technically superior sensor, because at least some other elements of the camera have to be superior as well. The technical aspects also mask the notion of value proposition, which is what drives choice in the professional market. If the 645Z was being sold in the near vicinity of, say, the D800's price, then it would stack up fairly well as a value proposition for a substantial slice of that camera's potential buying group, but at more than twice the D800's price it doesn't.

Those are the two considerations that counter the proposition that there won't ever be a Pentax 35FF camera, in my opinion. The lack of suitable badged lenses is a furphy – you aren't going to hear about those until a body is announced. Even the infamous contention about IBIS incompatibility with a K-mount 35FF body seems to have subsided, so I'm at a loss to understand why the lens issue hasn't done likewise.

you know, they even have a section the specifically compare to 135 camera: Medium Format Digital Camera and 35 mm Full-Frame Camera / PENTAX 645Z Special site | RICOH IMAGING
where they don't even compare 645z to other MF camera! they are targeting people who wants FF, not targeting those who wants MF. They are, using this 645z to compete in the FF segment.

If they are presenting a 135 camera, do you think they will market this 645z as a FF camera competitor?
If they have a 135 camera in the making, they will target this 645z to compete in with other MF cameras and compare them in their marketing website.... the price alone is a big attractive point for the 645z compete in MF segment.

04-24-2014, 03:28 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
you know, they even have a section the specifically compare to 135 camera: Medium Format Digital Camera and 35 mm Full-Frame Camera / PENTAX 645Z Special site | RICOH IMAGING
where they don't even compare 645z to other MF camera! they are targeting people who wants FF, not targeting those who wants MF. They are, using this 645z to compete in the FF segment.

If they are presenting a 135 camera, do you think they will market this 645z as a FF camera competitor?
If they have a 135 camera in the making, they will target this 645z to compete in with other MF cameras and compare them in their marketing website.... the price alone is a big attractive point for the 645z compete in MF segment.

I hear what you're saying, but are they (Pentax) not saying "Don't necessarily limit yourself to 35FF"? Comparing what's possible with a MF camera versus a 35FF is a different proposition to directly competing with it.

The matter of competing in the MF segment is an interesting one. Within that segment, the 645Z is almost in a class of its own. In a sense, it's the converse of the situation of the new Leica T, which is on its own because of high price and build quality. The 645Z may be considered too cheap by some, when viewed against the opposition.
04-24-2014, 03:59 PM - 1 Like   #28
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Consider that the MF market is not nearly as large as the FF (135 format) market. So if they want to sell a lot of 645z cameras then who are they going to target? People with Hassies? Or people who are already high end FF, like D800 and would like to move up a bit? I know a landscape photographer that sold off a complete Canon 5d MkII kit to invest in a D800 and lenses. Changing brands was not really an issue, he wanted the results. I think he would be an excellent candidate to move up to a 645z.

I think the marketing concept is excellent and should make Nikon and Canon nervous on the high end. Whether the marketing execution works out is another story.
04-24-2014, 04:45 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
If they are presenting a 135 camera, do you think they will market this 645z as a FF camera competitor?
Yes they would. There's no conflict here. The 645z is supposed to be significantly better than a FF. So Pentax can also release a FF that's touted as merely "slightly better than" other FFs (and hopefully it actually is).
04-24-2014, 05:16 PM   #30
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Talked to Pentax Sweden today at a tech convention about the K-3, the TIPA reward and the mirror flippedy flopp and we talked about that the Tamron 150-600 does not have a K-mount and he said something like "-Well, when we release the full frame this autumn Tamron and Pentax will start making more lenses and ..." and then we were interupted. Who knows...
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