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07-17-2014, 05:55 PM   #286
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yes, but I'm talking about your lack of knowledge because of your video bias.

In a Pentax forum you can still pay attention to Pentax news as reported by other members before posting.

That interview was posted previously.
I don't pay much attention to cameras I have no interest in.

07-17-2014, 06:30 PM   #287
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I don't pay much attention to cameras I have no interest in.
So, it begs the question, what's keeping you here? Your desire to promote other camera systems to Pentax users? To tell everyone what a big mistake they've made staying with Pentax? Well, I made a bigger mistake, I decided to override my ignore list and read this post. What a waste of time, I knew it would be, I just couldn't stop myself, like a moth to light.
07-17-2014, 06:39 PM   #288
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
I don't pay much attention to cameras I have no interest in.
But look where you are.

The forum and thread you're in.

And yet you continue to post (uninformed) about issues people who do care about Pentaxes and use them regularly have feelings about.

I'm not saying you've become a troll, but ...that's a long green nose and hairy ears you're sporting, no?

This forum is less parochial than it might be and provides a non-Pentax thread where you and Christine can happily post ... but this is how you repay the community?

Last edited by clackers; 07-17-2014 at 06:51 PM.
07-17-2014, 07:40 PM   #289
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So, it begs the question, what's keeping you here? Your desire to promote other camera systems to Pentax users? To tell everyone what a big mistake they've made staying with Pentax? Well, I made a bigger mistake, I decided to override my ignore list and read this post. What a waste of time, I knew it would be, I just couldn't stop myself, like a moth to light.
Three Pentax cameras aren't enough to be admitted to the club, huh, norm.

07-17-2014, 11:22 PM   #290
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
personally, I'd love to see Ricoh keep up their investments in "modular" digital cameras. A square format, modular, digital, mirrorless, mini-Hasselblad-like camera would be just the ticket with removable sensor packs (B&W, Color, Infrared, High-ISO, etc.). The lens mount would be a new mount, with an adapter extension that would AF with K-mount of course. The image area would be 24x24mm (or perhaps slightly less). An optional tilt/shift adapter between the new mount and the K-mount would be icing on the cake.

Michael
Interesting idea, although you aren't the first to suggest a modular system (many others are keen on a digital LX-style system).

I've also previously suggested the 'removable/interchangeable sensor' idea, but it got shouted down! I still think it would be quite a revolutionary idea for the FF market.

I'm not so sure about your suggested 24 x 24 sensor size, or the new lens mount....
07-18-2014, 12:30 AM   #291
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Nothing has happened in the 9 months since that article was published to indicate the article is inaccurate in any way.
I wonder...
"Less Camera Shake: unlike the mirror in a DSLR, the shutter by itself does not produce a lot of vibrations, resulting in less camera shake."
While the world is talking about shutter shake in some mirrorless cameras, some manufacturers even releasing firmware hacks to make it less of an issue. Guess what, cheap shutters and low mass don't work so well.
Who knows what else will happen?
07-18-2014, 12:35 AM - 2 Likes   #292
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I was thinking a long time about posting to this thread. Since I consider myself to be a sort of newby who started digital photography 2 years ago with a K-5 I don't feel I've got a lot to contribute to this well informed thread except my feeling of getting annoyed the more I read it. If I take a look at the subject of this sub-forum and and it's threads I would think people are talking about a Full Frame Pentax camera. Even newbies like me know that this camera doesn't exist yet so it's absolutely clear to me that people are speculating. What I really find annoying are statements like "I dont' care about cameras I have no interested in" or "Three Pentax cameras aren't enough to be admitted to the club?" because they don't contribute to the subject neither. Why does one take part in a discussion when your are not interested in it's subject? To show that one for sure is interested, but only in a negative way? This has nothing to do with critique on whatever subject a critique would be justified for, and I guess there may be dozens areas where critique may be useful. But this attitude of "I know better than You, my toys are bigger, more powerful, why do You care about an imaginary toy You could like better" contribute only to one thing: that this thread will be closed very soon like so many before it.

Ralf
07-18-2014, 01:00 AM   #293
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So, it begs the question, what's keeping you here? Your desire to promote other camera systems to Pentax users? To tell everyone what a big mistake they've made staying with Pentax? Well, I made a bigger mistake, I decided to override my ignore list and read this post. What a waste of time, I knew it would be, I just couldn't stop myself, like a moth to light.
There's a threshold question, too: how can you know if you may or may not have an interest in something if you don't pay it some attention? N'est ce pas?

As a CitroŽn driver, I have no interest in owning a Hyundai, but I still pay some attention to what they're doingÖ

07-18-2014, 02:50 AM   #294
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Nothing has happened in the 9 months since that article was published to indicate the article is inaccurate in any way. Just the opposite. DSLRs have trended down by about 20% in units and Mirrorless have trended up by about 13% in units. Things are a little fuzzier when comparing revenue, admittedly. In Japan, mirrorless in units are 60% of DSLR units in sales.

Canon positioned the Eos-M camera so that it wouldn't sell successfully against its DSLRs, and surprise - it didn't :-) But a better equipped M-mount might have done very well in my thinking. In any case, thats a small part of the article. What the author said about noise and mirror shock to the image are all true, and nobody argues those points. Not to mention the cost and pita factors on calibrating phase focusing hardware.

I don't recall anyone on this forum predicting the current collapse of the PS compact sales, but yet it happened anyway. So i'm not surprised when lots of folks dispute the anticipated changes in the DSLR status quo. Its funny how changes are easier to predict when looking back on historical events, but not so easy looking forward
I do think we (I) often confuse what we, on the forum, want with what direction the market is really heading. I read posts about "bare bones full frame" without video or, even auto focus and I just don't buy that any camera company would release such a camera. Most people here tend to be pretty traditional and would prefer a traditional SLR.

I did see the collapse of point and shoot cameras coming, as did many others, pointing to the fact that cell phone cameras were getting good enough that point and shoots didn't offer much improvement over them. At the same time, I don't see tiny cameras as the answer to all things photographic. There will continue to be SLRs and there will be mirrorless options and some of the mirrorless options will be pretty good sized, because large zooms are pretty unwieldy on small cameras.

Mirrorless has benefited recently from being the "new" thing for awhile, but I don't know that camera companies making them have generated a bunch of profit from them either. Certainly Olympus had a pretty rough go of it for awhile, as did Sony...
07-18-2014, 03:56 AM   #295
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Guess what, cheap shutters and low mass don't work so well.
True. The Mansurov article author probably has never used a NEX. I remember being rather shocked by the shutter noise and vibration a few years ago when I picked up my first NEX (a NEX-5). I took it into a quiet art-gallery shortly after buying it and felt very awkward using it due to the loud 'snap-slide-snap' shutter noise. Like a cash-register draw opening and closing.
07-18-2014, 04:34 AM   #296
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I do think we (I) often confuse what we, on the forum, want with what direction the market is really heading. I read posts about "bare bones full frame" without video or, even auto focus and I just don't buy that any camera company would release such a camera. Most people here tend to be pretty traditional and would prefer a traditional SLR.

I did see the collapse of point and shoot cameras coming, as did many others, pointing to the fact that cell phone cameras were getting good enough that point and shoots didn't offer much improvement over them. At the same time, I don't see tiny cameras as the answer to all things photographic. There will continue to be SLRs and there will be mirrorless options and some of the mirrorless options will be pretty good sized, because large zooms are pretty unwieldy on small cameras.

Mirrorless has benefited recently from being the "new" thing for awhile, but I don't know that camera companies making them have generated a bunch of profit from them either. Certainly Olympus had a pretty rough go of it for awhile, as did Sony...
Good points. My next camera will highly likely be a DSLR because of the lens support on Pentax, Nikon and Canon, the three brands which make them. But one looks at the market - Asia + Japan dwarf other regional markets, MILC sales climbing in Asia and Japan and now in Europe, DSLR sales turning down somewhat and anyway dominated by a hegemony, etc. - and it's not hard to think the camera-makers will want to direct their portfolios to what sells and where in the world. So I guess there may be less attention paid to what we want over here in the West which is still more focused on DSLRs than the East. (According to the figures; the reality could be different of course when we come to look back on 2013/14.) Even the USA, which is an economic superpower, takes only about a quarter of the DSLR output and half that of the MILC output worldwide.

Last edited by mecrox; 07-18-2014 at 04:53 AM.
07-18-2014, 05:06 AM   #297
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
But look where you are.

The forum and thread you're in.

And yet you continue to post (uninformed) about issues people who do care about Pentaxes and use them regularly have feelings about.

I'm not saying you've become a troll, but ...that's a long green nose and hairy ears you're sporting, no?

This forum is less parochial than it might be and provides a non-Pentax thread where you and Christine can happily post ... but this is how you repay the community?
Wow, are YOU serious ? You really have gone off the deep end now.
07-18-2014, 05:24 AM   #298
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I wonder...
"Less Camera Shake: unlike the mirror in a DSLR, the shutter by itself does not produce a lot of vibrations, resulting in less camera shake."
While the world is talking about shutter shake in some mirrorless cameras, some manufacturers even releasing firmware hacks to make it less of an issue. Guess what, cheap shutters and low mass don't work so well.
Meanwhile in reality... My first K-5 with ~25000 actuations has disappeared at the repair center three years ago. It was suffering from mirror flapping syndrome and it should have had its mainboard replaced. I've chased the center for more then a year. All the repair center does is apologize. Bought a second K-5 to have something to shoot with during that time. But it's lens release button fell off. Glued that back myself. Didn't do it very well though, because now I have to pull that button to get it to lock. And my brand new K-3 with even less actuations has been sent off for repair with the same mirror flapping issue about a month ago. I'm releaved and quite surprised that they announced that it will be returned to me next week. If the mirror mechanisms and knobs are that flimsy, I'm just going to assume the shutters are of the exact same quality. What's worse, K5 had mirror flapping, 5 models and 4 years later they still haven't fixed it in the K-3!

The fact that certain companies charge more for their products and their parts doesn't automatically mean the parts are of better quality. All it means is that repairing them is more costly. -A. Botchin

My old banged up (noisy?) Nex 5N, with its ~97000 actuations is still going strong. It feels flimsyer then ever with all the scratches and scuffs from use. And with the the underlying layers of different kinds of shiny plastic starting to show. The back LCD has a little ink stain on it because I dropped it. But it's still there for me, instead of my 'sturdy' 'high quality' Pentax DSLRs. Of course it gets little use now that I have an even noisier A7r. I love the noise; whish there was a firmware update that would make it even louder. So even more people look at me and see what gear I'm shooting with. And if they look irritated, I'll shoot a snap of their ugly mugs as well. A black and white high texture composition of a large collection of those will do so well in my gallery.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Who knows what else will happen?
Next up? For the ones that find it important: A7s with silent shutter mode. No mirror banging. No mechanical shutter vibrating. In that mode it uses only an electronic shutter. It's a glimpse in the future. Completely solid state cameras that don't clunk and rattle.

You can show me all the figures, article, quotes and facts you like. Less moving parts equals less wear, breakdowns, less vibrations in cameras, and more miniaturisation. Better to do something smart with cheap parts then somethig stupid with expensive ones.
07-18-2014, 06:03 AM   #299
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I'm not trying to convince you of anything, that would be pointless (even more so when you claim to dislike facts).
For example, I didn't say anything about reliability; my post which you quoted was about mass and cheap components. I was specifically addressing a part from the article, which is more of a prejudice than fact. But you couldn't let it happen, so you're pushing the discussion your way, your "reality" - where anything would play in your favor, loud shutters are a good thing and people surrounding you are ugly.
By the way, it's interesting how you mention the lens button falling off. Is that a SLR-specific issue? Perhaps it's linked somehow with the mirror?

P.S. Electronic shutters still have issues.
07-18-2014, 06:11 AM   #300
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One of the things that any internet user discovers very quickly, is that, exactly like in real life, there are some people who has a unfriendly relation with the truth. People that some time warp the reality, because they want to gain a debate whatever the means, or simply because they like to stir the waters.

Of course, is a problem to find out where is the truth in a debate, but after some time, and a number of post, anybody who has time to read a lot, knew who are those which are inclined to pervert the truth. But the majority of the members don't have the time to follow a lot of post, and they can be mislead. So, this became a matter of integrity for the hole forum.

On the astronomy forum where I'm a moderator, we solve problems like this, which mislead other people, and which are in no way useful, firmly.
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