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04-27-2014, 05:34 PM   #76
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A Pentax APS-H will exist only if Pentax will begin to make sensors, or will convince someone to make those sensors for them. Than doesn't mean that is imposible, but we must think that the new line of MF cameras came to life with only one sensor, from Sony. And those MF camera came to market in a short time, because of this.

The new 645z is inside a K-3, with some differences. No SR, probably bigger motors for shutter, mirror, and AF system, and some differences in software. But the difference in price is big. Why this difference? The sensor?

04-27-2014, 06:16 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote

The new 645z is inside a K-3, with some differences. No SR, probably bigger motors for shutter, mirror, and AF system, and some differences in software. But the difference in price is big. Why this difference? The sensor?
The sensor costs more as you suggested. But there is an overhead cost required to order material, design the changed circuitry to hook up to the new sensor, design any body changes required for the new camera like the where the USB3 connector and the 2 SD cards will sit, set up the manufacturing machinery, etc. And then this overhead cost must be divided by the expected small number of customers to determine how much of the overhead will be paid off by each customer. I expect the number of customers for this camera is probably less than 1/20th of the number that bought a K3. If you want to buy into a camera that will be in very small numbers, you're going to have to pay more for that membership. Thankfully, Pentax will have borrowed a lot of design information from both the 645D and the K3, or it could have been a lot more than the expected $8500, like the 30,000 or 50,000 that the other MF companies might charge.
04-27-2014, 06:52 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
A Pentax APS-H will exist only if Pentax will begin to make sensors, or will convince someone to make those sensors for them. Than doesn't mean that is imposible, but we must think that the new line of MF cameras came to life with only one sensor, from Sony. And those MF camera came to market in a short time, because of this.
Well, Kodak made the Leica M8's APS-H sized sensor, but UV sensitivity was its major issue. I daresay Trusense would drag the dies out again for the right price. I'm not sure where Canon's 1D sensor came from. In either case, the technology's moved on since then, so it'd be a pricey little exercise regardless of who the sensor was sourced from.

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
The new 645z is inside a K-3, with some differences. No SR, probably bigger motors for shutter, mirror, and AF system, and some differences in software. But the difference in price is big. Why this difference? The sensor?
It's a question that's been asked a fair bit since the 645Z announcement, but, for what it's worth, there's this earlier comment of mine https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/257655-pentax-645z-...ml#post2779234 and from a few others in that thread.
04-27-2014, 07:10 PM   #79
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Canon makes it's own sensor.

I'm shore that Pentax can find someone to make APS-H sensor, if they will be ready to pay the price. But I don't know if this price will be economical.

But I will surely like an APS-H with a surface 2x bigger than APS-C

04-27-2014, 09:29 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Someone is going to put a MF sensor in a mirrorless body and design compact lenses for the short flange distance and the smaller image circle. When they do, they will have a MF camera the size of a K-3. When that happens both FF and the current tank like MF cameras are going to be in trouble.

Good luck coming up with 16 new native lenses for this mount (like the 645D/Z have right now)!

Good luck getting most people to dump their entire Nikon or Canon FF kits (when they already have many great lenses)!
04-27-2014, 09:42 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
But I will surely like an APS-H with a surface 2x bigger than APS-C
Wouldn't we all! Where's the Tardis when you need it? It can be deceptive, looking at crop factors, though, because the APS-C crop factor of 1.5 masks the fact that it's close to half-frame size in terms of sensor area. Funny how people used to gush about the original Olympus Pen half-frame cameras, but dismissed the APS-C format in film, when all that had happened was a change of orientation.
04-28-2014, 10:13 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
Good luck coming up with 16 new native lenses for this mount (like the 645D/Z have right now)!
The vast majority of people who shoot MF don't need more than 5 lenses. I have 5 for my Contax 645 and really only use 3. The Mamiya 7II only has 5 lenses in the system. 80% of the market needs can be met with less than 10 lenses for this type system.

QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
Good luck getting most people to dump their entire Nikon or Canon FF kits (when they already have many great lenses)!
Sony's not having much trouble now selling the new A7 body. If Pentax is expecting the 645z to compete with FF then they would have the same problem in getting Nikon/Canon shooters to change mounts. Anyway you look at it that problem exists.

There are also a large number of mirrorless M4/3 and APS-C shooters who could just skip FF and go straight to a MF mirrorless. Their lenses won't work on a FF anyway and you would have two system that complement each other really well.

At one point I was shooting with an Olympus E-3, Canon 5D and a Contax 645. There are a lot of us out there who run multiple mounts.
04-28-2014, 11:15 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
i think there is commercial value in the digital MF format that the 645z represents.
I think you are onto a bigger truth here. When Ricoh purchased Pentax they noted that the 645D may have value that extends beyond the consumer market to institutional archiving requirements. As Ricoh is very much a B2B company, the integrating the 645Z's technology into a larger solution for big commercial accounts (institutions and universities, corporations, medical research) would enhance existing relationships and provide a much higher ROI.

We'll see. . .

M

04-28-2014, 11:20 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
I think you are onto a bigger truth here. When Ricoh purchased Pentax they noted that the 645D may have value that extends beyond the consumer market to institutional archiving requirements. As Ricoh is very much a B2B company, the integrating the 645Z's technology into a larger solution for big commercial accounts (institutions and universities, corporations, medical research) would enhance existing relationships and provide a much higher ROI.
I had a chat with our copier repair person awhile back, just after Ricoh aquired Pentax. He was a Pentax film shooter and so we had a nice conversation. He stated at the time that the word in the copier division was that Ricoh had just bought some amazing tech for document archiving and reproduction in the Pentax deal. No details and no idea if it was just water cooler gossip. And nothing has been said since, so who knows.
04-28-2014, 11:35 AM   #85
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If Pentax custom-orders an APS-H sensor it will end up costing as much or more than a FF sensor. At which point, they might as well just do the FF sensor since it's already available!

So, count me among the cynicals on APS-H. Never gonna happen.
04-28-2014, 12:55 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The vast majority of people who shoot MF don't need more than 5 lenses. I have 5 for my Contax 645 and really only use 3. The Mamiya 7II only has 5 lenses in the system. 80% of the market needs can be met with less than 10 lenses for this type system.

Sony's not having much trouble now selling the new A7 body. If Pentax is expecting the 645z to compete with FF then they would have the same problem in getting Nikon/Canon shooters to change mounts. Anyway you look at it that problem exists.

There are also a large number of mirrorless M4/3 and APS-C shooters who could just skip FF and go straight to a MF mirrorless. Their lenses won't work on a FF anyway and you would have two system that complement each other really well.

At one point I was shooting with an Olympus E-3, Canon 5D and a Contax 645. There are a lot of us out there who run multiple mounts.
I'm afraid you're ignoring some major factors that make MF mirrorless far from a shoe-in:


- Does every MF shooter need the same 3 to 5 lenses as the other MF shooters? If so, why does Pentax have 16?

- It's hard to get even 3 new lenses available for any new mount at launch time, let alone 10!

- Would someone abandoning FF still say 3 or 5 lenses is enough? I suspect he would need more, because he's now trying to use MF for more scenarios than traditionally is done (which may actually be feasible with the 645Z, BTW)? So the cost of entry into a new MF mirrorless is just as high as with the 645z, since he can't bring his FF lenses over to it. And with a new MF mirrorless mount he'll have to use two systems for at least three years, until more native lenses finally arrive! The 645Z has 16 native lenses now!

- With the A7 cameras (we have 3 now!) a FF shooter doesn't have to abandon his current lenses - it can easily take non-native lenses from any major brand (albeit without AF for most). So many people are buying only the A7 body plus adapter(s) - just to try it out. Because of this, we don't really know if the A7 cameras are actually successful yet. And the number of people with existing MF lenses is way smaller, so the number of corresponding MF mirrorless sales should be way smaller. This is a bad comparison.



The move to a MF mirrorless has the same barriers as the 645Z - whether coming from m4/3, APS-C, FF, or a Pentax Q! None of these lenses can be moved over to it!


Any successful MF mirrorless absolutely must accept the existing stable of lenses from at least one major brand. The Pentax 645Z already does this.

And any MF mirrorless with its huge adapters will probably be just as awkwardly unbalanced as the original NEX cameras with adapted lenses.



Contrary to your original statement, I think you've just proven that FF (and probably existing MF) will not be in trouble if a MF mirrorless is released, because people will still need to depend on existing lenses - if not the entire systems (especially in the case of FF).

Last edited by DSims; 04-28-2014 at 01:13 PM.
04-28-2014, 01:05 PM   #87
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I'm not sure many (if any) people would be 'abandoning' a FF Canon or Nikon for MF anything. They very well might add a digital MF for use in some situations such as landscape or studio work, but still use FF or APS-C when those formats are appropriate. So I think reasoning that assumes a 645z would be someone's only camera is not logical. MF is a bit of a specialty, and those that need it or can afford it now have a an excellent choice at a reasonable price. If I took high end landscapes I could get the 645z and one or two lenses to cover everything I want to do. And use my other gear for all the situations where I don't want or need such a huge camera.
04-28-2014, 02:09 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I'm not sure many (if any) people would be 'abandoning' a FF Canon or Nikon for MF anything. They very well might add a digital MF for use in some situations such as landscape or studio work, but still use FF or APS-C when those formats are appropriate. So I think reasoning that assumes a 645z would be someone's only camera is not logical. MF is a bit of a specialty, and those that need it or can afford it now have a an excellent choice at a reasonable price. If I took high end landscapes I could get the 645z and one or two lenses to cover everything I want to do. And use my other gear for all the situations where I don't want or need such a huge camera.
This makes me wonder. How many members of this forum use only a 645D camera?
04-28-2014, 02:50 PM   #89
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I won't buy a CaNikon telephoto solution. I'm totally happy with my K-3 + DA* 60-250mm f/4 which is "the cat's meow" as far as I am concerned in that telephoto range: nothing else comes close no matter what the sensor size. But likewise, I won't bother with an APS-C wide angle solution either as nothing beats my Nikon D800 + Nikkor 14-24mm. Which leaves "the middle ground" open to discussion. I could imagine adding a third camera to my mix that would cover (35mm equivalent) 24-90mm. If Pentax would deliver that with the 645 system then I could imagine investing in that as my assumption would be that given the size of the sensor nothing else could touch it (especially for landscape/urbanscape) -- add tilt/shift and you have a compelling story. However, I just added a lightweight 24-85mm Nikkor to my travel kit to fill that gap so Pentax has its work cut out for it if they want more of my hard-earned dollars to support their creative efforts. YMMV.

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04-28-2014, 04:29 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
A Pentax APS-H will exist only if Pentax will begin to make sensors, or will convince someone to make those sensors for them. Than doesn't mean that is imposible, but we must think that the new line of MF cameras came to life with only one sensor, from Sony. And those MF camera came to market in a short time, because of this.

The new 645z is inside a K-3, with some differences. No SR, probably bigger motors for shutter, mirror, and AF system, and some differences in software. But the difference in price is big. Why this difference? The sensor?
There is zero chance for an APS-H sensor in a Pentax camera. There is a better chance of Pentax having three full frame cameras with 12mp, 24mp and 36mp sensors.
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