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04-28-2014, 05:27 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
There is zero chance for an APS-H sensor in a Pentax camera. There is a better chance of Pentax having three full frame cameras with 12mp, 24mp and 36mp sensors.
I would love to see three FF cameras, like this. In fact, I think that everybody will. But, somehow, I have some doubts. First, I don't know if Sony will sell those sensors to Pentax, regarding that Pentax has done a much better job with the K-5 than Sony, with the same sensor. Second, because I have a distinct impression that Ricoh is a little ''shy'' to launch many cameras on the same market segment.

But I hope they'll prove that I'm wrong.

04-28-2014, 08:02 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I would love to see three FF cameras, like this. In fact, I think that everybody will. But, somehow, I have some doubts. First, I don't know if Sony will sell those sensors to Pentax, regarding that Pentax has done a much better job with the K-5 than Sony, with the same sensor. Second, because I have a distinct impression that Ricoh is a little ''shy'' to launch many cameras on the same market segment.

But I hope they'll prove that I'm wrong.
I think two FF cameras would be good, and it even matches what Nikon and Canon do (from a consumer perspective).
04-28-2014, 08:16 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I would love to see three FF cameras, like this. In fact, I think that everybody will. But, somehow, I have some doubts. First, I don't know if Sony will sell those sensors to Pentax, regarding that Pentax has done a much better job with the K-5 than Sony, with the same sensor. Second, because I have a distinct impression that Ricoh is a little ''shy'' to launch many cameras on the same market segment.

But I hope they'll prove that I'm wrong.
They will have to grow market share across the range before multiple bodies of that kind would endanger their position by cannibalising their own products. Only when you grow sufficiently big can you afford to have that happening around the margins of each product, because sales of each will be enough to provide an adequate return on the respective investments.
04-28-2014, 08:18 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
IMHO, 645 is good for studio and landscape. Not for sport, for action, for events where you need speed and long range.
I think this is perfectly why they're trying to position the 645 system as the Pentax "FF" - for sport, action, and events where you need speed and long range (and prints don't necessarily go up to meters in size), get APS-C; for studio, landscape, and where controlled shoots are the norm , there's the 645.

04-28-2014, 08:53 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
I think this is perfectly why they're trying to position the 645 system as the Pentax "FF" - for sport, action, and events where you need speed and long range (and prints don't necessarily go up to meters in size), get APS-C; for studio, landscape, and where controlled shoots are the norm , there's the 645.
I agree with that... But if you have a FF Pentax, you're in the middle of those both formats, and you can do better large scale prints than APS-C and you can also use it for sports/action and long ranges (with just a little help from teleconverters) versus the 645 system...
04-28-2014, 10:16 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
I think this is perfectly why they're trying to position the 645 system as the Pentax "FF" - for sport, action, and events where you need speed and long range (and prints don't necessarily go up to meters in size), get APS-C; for studio, landscape, and where controlled shoots are the norm , there's the 645.
...for those who can afford it, or, more generally, justify it.

QuoteOriginally posted by richard balonglong Quote
I agree with that... But if you have a FF Pentax, you're in the middle of those both formats, and you can do better large scale prints than APS-C and you can also use it for sports/action and long ranges (with just a little help from teleconverters) versus the 645 system...
24MP is 24MP, unless you're referring to high ISO noise, when I agree with your statement on scaling, otherwise, a 24MP APS-C will scale better than a 12MP 35FF, all other aspects being equal (which I accept, they sometimes aren't).
04-29-2014, 06:40 AM   #97
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A 24 MP APS-C (especially one without an AA filter, like the K-3) will scale better than a 12MP FF.

An APS-C with a consumer grade normal prime and an AA will scale about the same as a 13-14 MP FF with a consumer grade prime... at least according to some people on the internet...

04-29-2014, 02:23 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
A 24 MP APS-C (especially one without an AA filter, like the K-3) will scale better than a 12MP FF.

An APS-C with a consumer grade normal prime and an AA will scale about the same as a 13-14 MP FF with a consumer grade prime... at least according to some people on the internet...
I don't really understand what these graphs mean. I guess you are talking about wide open performance? I have a hard time believing that a 12 megapixel full frame camera is going to out scale a 24 megapixel APS-C camera shot (with most lenses) at f5.6 or f8.

04-29-2014, 03:04 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't really understand what these graphs mean. I guess you are talking about wide open performance? I have a hard time believing that a 12 megapixel full frame camera is going to out scale a 24 megapixel APS-C camera shot (with most lenses) at f5.6 or f8.
Doesn't sound right to me, either, but how can you argue with a GRAPH?

It wasn't wide-open - performance was near ~f/5.6 - f/8 as you mention.

You know what (I) think an interesting test might be? Downsampling a 36MP sensor to 9MP, then comparing performance against, say, a 16MP K-5. That should prove/disprove a theory.
04-29-2014, 04:00 PM - 1 Like   #100
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QuoteQuote:
I don't really understand what these graphs mean. I guess you are talking about wide open performance? I have a hard time believing that a 12 megapixel full frame camera is going to out scale a 24 megapixel APS-C camera shot (with most lenses) at f5.6 or f8.
Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/169-pentax-full-frame/258584-pentax-will-...#ixzz30JqUMahA

A Pentax K-3 (24 MP) with a Sigma 70 macro on it will give you.... 2,700 LW/PH of resolution.... Pentax K-3 Review - Exposure
A Nikon D600 24 Mp with the same lens will give you (ta da, drum roll) 2,700-2,800 LW/PH of resolution... Nikon D600 Review - Exposure
A canon 5Dmk3 23 MPwith the same or equivalent set up will give you 2,400 LW/PH.

Sometimes you just have to ignore the chatter and look at the numbers.
04-29-2014, 05:16 PM   #101
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imaging resource... they still taking pictures of pictures?

Judging resolution subjectively?

You ever wonder why imaging resource gets different results than, say, dxomark? Photozone?

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 04-29-2014 at 07:09 PM.
04-30-2014, 09:15 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Doesn't sound right to me, either, but how can you argue with a GRAPH?
Never argue with a GRAPH. It will lower you to his level and beat you with experience.
Wait, that saying wasn't about graphs

Do you think GRAPHS in general should not be questioned nor understood (but unconditionally accepted), or only some of them?
A 16MP AA-less APS-C DSLR with a good lens will easily outresolve a 12 MP 135 camera from what I saw; if a chart is claiming otherwise, then it's likely wrong.
04-30-2014, 10:07 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Never argue with a GRAPH. It will lower you to his level and beat you with experience.
Wait, that saying wasn't about graphs

Do you think GRAPHS in general should not be questioned nor understood (but unconditionally accepted), or only some of them?
A 16MP AA-less APS-C DSLR with a good lens will easily outresolve a 12 MP 135 camera from what I saw; if a chart is claiming otherwise, then it's likely wrong.
There weren't any 16MP AA-less on that chart. I think it would be a good addition. On the most expensive lenses, the APS-C 16MP will 'win'. With the least expensive lenses, the 12MP FF will 'win'. At what $$ is the crossover?

Of course graphs should be questioned and understood. But also unconditionally accepted, if they're the charts that I agree with.
04-30-2014, 10:56 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
imaging resource... they still taking pictures of pictures?

Judging resolution subjectively?

You ever wonder why imaging resource gets different results than, say, dxomark? Photozone?
Well, all of these places have issues with number of copies of lenses tested (I guess most do one or at the most two copies). I assume this is why the Sigma 35mm f1.4 tests awesomely in DXO Mark's D7100 test, but not nearly as good on their K3 test.

Photozone has not done any tests on 24 megapixel APS-C cameras, as far as I can see -- APS-C tests are still being done D7000 and K5s.

As to "taking pictures of pictures," I think it is a pretty standard way of judging resolution, to take a photo of a chart and see what kind of detail it resolves. Not a real world situation, but one that will give you an objective number.
04-30-2014, 12:34 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
24MP is 24MP, unless you're referring to high ISO noise, when I agree with your statement on scaling, otherwise, a 24MP APS-C will scale better than a 12MP 35FF, all other aspects being equal (which I accept, they sometimes aren't).
I agree with you, 24mp is 24mp, either APS-C or FF, they both have a 6000 x 4000 resolution. But a 24mp FF sensor (versus the 24mp APS-C) still has an overall advantages for the photographer when it comes to image quality and flexibility due to its larger pixel size.

Let me share you one of my real world situation I had last year similar to this discussion :
Me (using a 14mp Pentax K-7 and 16mp K-01[same with K-5]) and my partner in our commercial photography business (who is using a FF 12mp Nikon D700), had an assignment shoot from a client for a sports magazine and also to be used for large scale ad-campaign prints. So, when both of us were taking photos of dynamic action portraits of different athletes with the use of multiple off-camera flash, and when I started processing the RAW images from all our cameras I immediately saw a huge difference when it comes to dynamic range and fine details from highlights to shadows, example: the hair strands of the athletes has more details from the D700, there are a lot more details that can be retrieved under dark shadows and blown up highlights even at a higher ISOs from the D700. The overall image quality both from of my Pentax cameras can't catch up with those images from my partner's full frame camera.
Yes, the sensors of my Pentax cameras has (slightly) more MP count (which is good for producing bigger prints) versus the D700, but the D700 produced a much higher quality images and still stays good even if I scale up the images more. The image quality from my Pentax cameras after the shoot and processing still turned out great but not as great like those from my partner's FF camera.

Last edited by richard balonglong; 05-01-2014 at 04:00 AM.
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