[Kunzite]

It's not "thread-policing", but IMHO people who disagree with this stuff should be allowed to voice their opinion. Otherwise one would believe we're all fine with it, which isn't the case.
It's indeed up to the staff which opinion is more important and how they see this forum; and yes, I'm done with it. Thanks for your patience.

P.S. Phil, you're of course perfectly entitled to want a FF MILC. It's just extremely unlikely that Pentax would launch a MILC system starting with a niche FF product, so if you're asking Pentax to do it - it won't happen. Sorry.

[cali92rs]

P.S. Phil, you're of course perfectly entitled to want a FF MILC. It's just extremely unlikely that Pentax would launch a MILC system starting with a niche FF product, so if you're asking Pentax to do it - it won't happen. Sorry.

That's an odd statement...seems like the majority of what Pentax does now is Niche products.
Q - Niche
Theta - Niche
DA 20-40 Niche
DA 560mm Niche
GR Niche

The only one that wasn't niche was the K-3, and even that is debateable now since Canon and Nikon have made it abundantly clear that they don't really care about high end APS-C. People have been waiting for a D400 and 7D mk2 for almost as long as Pentaxians have been waiting for FF. It seems like they may finally introduced at Photokina, but that may be their last pro-style APS-C DSLR. Almost certainly is the case with Nikon from their press releases.

[eyeswideshut]

Bravo, I'd just add the 645Z - not exactly mainstream either.

[Kunzite]

That's an odd statement...seems like the majority of what Pentax does now is Niche products.
Q - Niche
Theta - Niche
DA 20-40 Niche
DA 560mm Niche
GR Niche

The only one that wasn't niche was the K-3, and even that is debateable now since Canon and Nikon have made it abundantly clear that they don't really care about high end APS-C. People have been waiting for a D400 and 7D mk2 for almost as long as Pentaxians have been waiting for FF. It seems like they may finally introduced at Photokina, but that may be their last pro-style APS-C DSLR. Almost certainly is the case with Nikon from their press releases.

Nothing odd with it, except if you take a single word out of context and try to fit some "argument" around it, instead of trying to find what it really means to launch a "full frame" system, and what would help making it happen. A FF MILC system is not a Q, nor a Theta, nor a lens (though it will contains several), nor a GR. What they did to make them work can't be done for a FF MILC (nor DSLR); unless they could somehow launch a FF camera with a sensor much smaller than the competition's

Talking about systems, the Q is not niche (FTR the Q7's initial production volume was double the K-3's); and the 645Z is by far the cheapest medium format (the bodies more than the lenses) - trying to make it as less niche as possible.

[cali92rs]

Nothing odd with it, except if you take a single word out of context and try to fit some "argument" around it, instead of trying to find what it really means to launch a "full frame" system, and what would help making it happen. A FF MILC system is not a Q, nor a Theta, nor a lens (though it will contains several), nor a GR. What they did to make them work can't be done for a FF MILC (nor DSLR); unless they could somehow launch a FF camera with a sensor much smaller than the competition's

Talking about systems, the Q is not niche (FTR the Q7's initial production volume was double the K-3's); and the 645Z is by far the cheapest medium format (the bodies more than the lenses) - trying to make it as less niche as possible.

It is not taking anything out of context...the context being that somehow Pentax would not release a FF MILC because it was too niche.
My point was that the whole Pentax system is, by definition, niche. How can it not be when about 1 out of 20 cameras sold is Pentax?

Double a small number is still a small number, making the Q niche. And any camera sold for over 7 times the average person's monthly mortgage is niche..."trying to make it less niche as possible" is really trying to rationalize your weak argument.

[Clavius]

That's an odd statement...seems like the majority of what Pentax does now is Niche products.
Q - Niche
Theta - Niche
DA 20-40 Niche
DA 560mm Niche
GR Niche

The only one that wasn't niche was the K-3, and even that is debateable now since Canon and Nikon have made it abundantly clear that they don't really care about high end APS-C. People have been waiting for a D400 and 7D mk2 for almost as long as Pentaxians have been waiting for FF. It seems like they may finally introduced at Photokina, but that may be their last pro-style APS-C DSLR. Almost certainly is the case with Nikon from their press releases.

Awesome point. Don't forget the K-01. Yes, that's discontinued, but it was a niche within a niche even. And the WR in the Pentax bodies isn't mainstream either. Nor is a range of slow but small primes. It seems like being a niche product is a requirement for most products in the Pentax system. Which is perfectly fine, btw. I think I even remember a Pentax representative stating it in one of the many interviews.

Then again, they're too late to fill the FF-MILC niche. And with Fuji rumored to be joing that direction it won't be a niche any longer. So, they're definitely not interested in that.

Maybe a DSLR with the A7s sensor? That's a first for sure.

[rawr]

Maybe a DSLR with the A7s sensor? That's a first for sure.

I expect Sony to do that before anyone else does. An A99s or something.

[Kunzite]

It is not taking anything out of context...the context being that somehow Pentax would not release a FF MILC because it was too niche.
My point was that the whole Pentax system is, by definition, niche. How can it not be when about 1 out of 20 cameras sold is Pentax?

Double a small number is still a small number, making the Q niche. And any camera sold for over 7 times the average person's monthly mortgage is niche..."trying to make it less niche as possible" is really trying to rationalize your weak argument.

You said yourself "The only one that wasn't niche was the K-3" - now you're backpedalling on that? That's how strong your arguments are.

The context is how could Pentax/Ricoh make a "full frame" product line work. Not about making a single camera, not about randomly calling stuff "niche" or not.
And in order to be a viable project (breaking news: they would like to make a profit!), they need to sell in sufficient quantities. We don't know where's the break even point, but we can safely assume it's not trivial to reach it - otherwise we'd have that "full frame" already.

Just a bit of common sense can see that a "full frame" DSLR has the following advantages over a new system MILC, all working to increase the sales:
- a significant existing user base:
- needed to "upgrade" to "full frame" (much easier to keep your own customers than to get other brand's)
- they will buy "full frame" lenses! Canon/Nikon APS-C users are using "full frame" lenses on their cameras, and so will Pentax APS-C users!
- several existing lenses, OEM and third-party - the support is already there
- the DSLR market being much larger than the MILC one, but with only a fraction of the camera makers. Only 3 are still making classic DSLRs. And guess what, Ricoh Imaging/Pentax is growing.

You might write post after post, and reject my arguments and explanations as soon as you read who's writing them - but mark my words, you won't see Ricoh Imaging starting a new system with a "full frame". They might do it with APS-C, gradually building to the same advantages as mentioned above; but I'd say not right now.

And now, I'll quote Mr. Kitazawa for a third time: "First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."

[cali92rs]

You said yourself "The only one that wasn't niche was the K-3" - now you're backpedalling on that? That's how strong your arguments are.

Way to pull part of a statement to try and twist something to meet your needs.

Maybe you want to quote the whole sentence:

The only one that wasn't niche was the K-3, and even that is debateable now since Canon and Nikon have made it abundantly clear that they don't really care about high end APS-C.

The part of that sentence following the comma means that I think that the K-3 may be considered niche because there are not many high-end APS-C options out there.
You know, the part you strategically left out for some reason.

[Kunzite]

Look, do you care at all about the most important parts of my posts, or you're just clinging to what's insignificant for the sake of arguing?

[cali92rs]

Look, do you care at all about the most important parts of my posts, or you're just clinging to what's insignificant for the sake of arguing?

I care about the parts where i am being misquoted for the sake of being intellectually dishonest.

Regarding the other parts of your post, believe it or not, I do agree that for the time being FF DSLR has more money making potential than MILC.
But if you go back and read yesterday's post, I never said I thought MILC was the way to go. I just took exception to the fact that people bringing MILC into the conversation were being marginalized by others, saying it was "propaganda".

[Kunzite]

You were properly quoted and a consistency error (due to haste in making an "argument") pointed out. But now that you're insisting, there's also a logic error in that phrase - you cannot define "niche" by Canikon caring (or not) about it.
If you extract single words and build strawmen around it, you'd better be good at this game; kettle logic won't do.

That subject is closed due to other people's request, please read back and see what's an issue and what's not - then decide for yourself if you crossed the (subjective) line or not, if you care.

[RyanW]

They've put condensers in there so it will go off at least two more times after you remove the battery.

Perfect!

[Big Dave]

I'm one man, not many. And I'm a moderator on another forum, with more than 1700 members for more than 7 years. And I know when things starts to go wild on a forum, because few people think that their opinion must be embraced by everyone. And they keep pushing their ideas over and over, until they annoy other members. That's exactly what is happening here.

It seems like you are the only one being annoyed. This is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. This is suppose to be a discussion about the future Pentax FF. When talking about a possible future camera, it is only reasonable to discuss the features of current models by other manufactures. It just so happens that the A7 series have many of these desirable features which could be included in a FF pentax. You always have the option of leaving.

[Kunzite]

People already left; good people, with a talent for photography and liking Pentax products. And now you're telling us more Pentaxians should leave, to not hinder somehow the Sony talks? Perhaps you should petition a name change for this forum.