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05-16-2014, 04:07 AM   #1
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Waiting for Pentax Full Frame

A camera body is just like a "house" and lenses are like something that people bought for the house. An APS-C camera body is not the best to the pentax manual lenses since it reduces the performance of the lenses, and the lenses specially designed for an APS-C body are something like "chicken ribs". Ricoh/Pentax should take the advantage of the market occupation of its old manual lenses to expand the market of the FF DSLR cameras, and the expansion may conversely help it to expand the market of its AUTO FF lenses. There should be no opportunity for developing AUTO FF lenses and expanding the market occupation if there were no a sufficient market occupation of the "houses"----FF camera body.

In my opinion, Pentax shouldn't develop APS-C cameras at the beginning of DSLR for it would like to provide a special support on a DSLR body for its old manual lenses. So, even both the K-01 and K-3 are bad strategical choices on the way that Pentax was going on, especially in the time when FF sensors had been popularized. The K-01 might be a great opportunity for both Pentax company and its users before Sony launched its a7 series if it were a FF-body design and the price at $1099~1199 rather than in APS-C format and the price at $599~699. I will never buy one K-01 or K-3 even if their prices are decreased to 1/3 of the current since I don't want to continue to play my old lenses with a APS-C body any more.

这两天用pentax的K20D玩了几个老手动头,有50/1.4,28/28,135/2.5,28-105/2.8-3.8以及70-210/2.8-4.0,感觉其机身在功能上为了方便手动镜头而设计得比较独到。除了对焦慢一点,其它性能都非常不错。不过,突然之间又发现,既然Pentax想在数码时代兼顾其老的优质手动镜头,为何要与佳能和尼康等在数码时代已经完全放弃了老式接口镜头的厂家比拼残幅机?如果一开始就直接出全幅机型,其机身的市场占有率是否会更高一些?

如果我是Pentax的主管,我可能在数码时代刚开始的时候就走全幅之路,以借用其老式镜头作为优势,一方面可以扩大机身的市场占有率,另一方面又为客户节省投资。所以,我认为Pentax在数码时代没能取得足够的成功,与其一开始就走残幅的路有很大的关系。这应该是一个商家在其决策中的部分失策导致的战略性失败。

最近的一大失策应该是继续在K-01和K-3机型上复制残幅,而不是果断地走全幅。如果它是全幅,我会毫不犹豫就买了。


Last edited by PTCLG; 05-19-2014 at 12:10 PM. Reason: typos: old les shoule be "old lenses" in the last sentence.
05-16-2014, 05:05 AM   #2
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With regard to the house analogy, wouldn't surprise me if , for some of us, we see the Lenses as the block of land, with the house then more like the camera body. I guess then the straps, camera bags, filters etc become the stuff we put in the house. Good land passes the test of time, as new or different dwellings are built on it somewhat at the whim of fasion or perceived need etc..
05-16-2014, 06:39 AM   #3
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I am not totally sure about the goal behind the opening post. If Pentax releases a full frame camera, it will not be to sell old lenses or just so that Pentaxians can continue to use ancient glass. Yes, the glass will be usable, but I don't particularly see Ricoh/Pentax make a concerted effort to make using older glass easier to use than it is already.

As to APS-C versus full frame, there is still plenty of place in the marketplace for APS-C cameras. You can get an awfully nice camera for 500 dollars at this point, if you are willing to "deal" with the limitations of an APS-C sensor. I certainly would be upset if Pentax completely ditched APS-C for full frame.
05-16-2014, 06:46 AM - 2 Likes   #4
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I'm so happy the OP is not running Pentax...
Sorry, PTCLG, but Pentax won't survive by building expensive cameras for $30 lenses found at the flea market. Nor by abandoning over 90% of the DSLR market (yes, "FF" is still in single digits).
The K-3 is an excellent move, and it's what made the 645Z possible. APS-C is the one enabling them to make and support larger formats (by sharing R&D, components, accessories, even lenses); it's a grave mistake to consider it your enemy.

05-16-2014, 07:21 AM   #5
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What is the logic of getting out of the one segment which generates all of your profits and getting into one which you don't have a presence in, it's much smaller, over saturated w competitors (some of which probably lower cost than you due to economies of scale) just so that you sell a camera which your current customers can use their ALREADY sold lens with...
05-16-2014, 07:48 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am not totally sure about the goal behind the opening post. If Pentax releases a full frame camera, it will not be to sell old lenses or just so that Pentaxians can continue to use ancient glass. Yes, the glass will be usable, but I don't particularly see Ricoh/Pentax make a concerted effort to make using older glass easier to use than it is already.

As to APS-C versus full frame, there is still plenty of place in the marketplace for APS-C cameras. You can get an awfully nice camera for 500 dollars at this point, if you are willing to "deal" with the limitations of an APS-C sensor. I certainly would be upset if Pentax completely ditched APS-C for full frame.
Why would Pentax dump APS-C for full frame ? Canon, Nikon and Sony did not do that.
05-16-2014, 07:53 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Why would Pentax dump APS-C for full frame ? Canon, Nikon and Sony did not do that.
QuoteOriginally posted by PTCLG Quote
In my opinion, Pentax shouldn't develop APS-C cameras at the beginning of DSLR for it would like to provide a special support for its old manual lenses. So, even both the K-01 and K-3 are bad strategical choices on the way that Pentax was going on, especially in the time when FF sensors had been popularized.
Well, I don't know for sure what the OP was referring to, but I thought, based on the way I read what he wrote, that he thought it was a mistake for Pentax to ever release APS-C cameras, much less continue to release them. The K3 is a "bad strategical choice," completely because it is APS-C and not full frame.
05-16-2014, 08:00 AM - 1 Like   #8
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What's the problem? You can shoot legacy Pentax glass on FF today. Why wait?

05-19-2014, 10:31 AM   #9
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If Ricoh/Pentax launch FF body

QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
What's the problem? You can shoot legacy Pentax glass on FF today. Why wait?
If Ricoh/Pentax launch FF body, I won't by a Sony a7 series, but if it doesn't, I might have to buy one with an adapter for my old Pentax lenses on it.
05-19-2014, 10:58 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by PTCLG Quote
If Ricoh/Pentax launch FF body, I won't by a Sony a7 series, but if it doesn't, I might have to buy one with an adapter for my old Pentax lenses on it.
Based upon what I've seen from Christine Tham here - sure - I might actually do that, too. I have 35 old pentax FF lenses. Presently I use them without an adapter on K10D, K-01, K3 and (adapted) with Q and Q7 (and various film cameras). They're becoming quite hard to manipulate for good images compared to modern lenses designed for a digital sensor.

The question is, if Pentax releases a new FF, body, how many new, FF lenses will you buy to go with your new, FF body?
05-19-2014, 12:04 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Based upon what I've seen from Christine Tham here - sure - I might actually do that, too. I have 35 old pentax FF lenses. Presently I use them without an adapter on K10D, K-01, K3 and (adapted) with Q and Q7 (and various film cameras). They're becoming quite hard to manipulate for good images compared to modern lenses designed for a digital sensor.

The question is, if Pentax releases a new FF, body, how many new, FF lenses will you buy to go with your new, FF body?
Maybe one or two modern AUTO/Manual lenses, but most of them should be the old pure Manual FF lens that I already have. I love these pure manual lenses just for fan, and they are solid without possible electrical issues in future. I will never worry about them, and any repair job will be much much simpler and easier with very low costs. In addition, the old manual lenses may help to extend the lifetime of your modern AUTO-focusing lenses in a very low cost.

Last edited by PTCLG; 05-19-2014 at 12:32 PM.
05-19-2014, 01:04 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by PTCLG Quote
Maybe one or two modern AUTO/Manual lenses, but most of them should be the old pure Manual FF lens that I already have
Well there's the rub. A camera company makes much more money selling lenses than it does selling camera bodies. There is a small part of me that thinks the only way Pentax can ever release a FF camera as a profitable business decision is to make an entirely new mount and intentionally obsolete all the existing FF K-mount lenses.

Sure, keep K-mount for APSc and use your existing lenses there - that basic R&D expense is fully amortized anyway. But you'll need to start over with new, modern lenses designed especially for the new, modern FF sensor and new, modern mount. Or buy an especially expensive adapter to use your old lenses.

I'm not predicting that and I don't actually think they would actually try to out-Sony Sony - but . . . . . .
05-19-2014, 01:25 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
There is a small part of me that thinks the only way Pentax can ever release a FF camera as a profitable business decision is to make an entirely new mount and intentionally obsolete all the existing FF K-mount lenses.
What a nice way to dramatically reduce the number of lenses sold!
IMHO a "FF" Pentax cannot exist without the support of the APS-C user base; and it's the same with the others. Let's remember two key factors:
- FF is single digits - it doesn't make even 10% of the DSLRs.
- APS-C users will buy FF lenses if given the chance.
Right now the APS-C user base is K-mount; so...
05-19-2014, 01:42 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
What a nice way to dramatically reduce the number of lenses sold!
IMHO a "FF" Pentax cannot exist without the support of the APS-C user base; and it's the same with the others. Let's remember two key factors:
- FF is single digits - it doesn't make even 10% of the DSLRs.
- APS-C users will buy FF lenses if given the chance.
Right now the APS-C user base is K-mount; so...
Yes, so there is a (small) chance that there is no profitable business case for releasing a FF Camera. After all, they're making a profit doing exactly wehat they're doing, so why mess up a good thing?
05-19-2014, 01:57 PM   #15
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That's not what I said.
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