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05-24-2014, 11:54 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
That's awesome.

I could make the same picture with a FF camera as you did with the Q. If you used equivalence, so could you. Maybe you'd find you didn't need as much gear to do everything you want to do.
Of course you could. But what is your point?

05-25-2014, 12:04 AM   #92
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Tony's response to the feedback:
05-25-2014, 12:46 AM   #93
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Response? He's simply trying to ridicule those "critics and corrections". Cheap tactics like this are disgusting and unprofessional (but I know some people here will find it funny, well, anything goes if it's for the Cause).
05-25-2014, 01:16 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
Because I never said that my goal was to create the exact same image with a Q that I could create with another format camera.
The single one point of equivalence theory is that you can take any picture just the same with any camera (and sensor size). That is why it is called "equivalency". It is not called "mine is longer than yours theory". That is only what some less well equipped fanboys try to make of it.
Regarding the equivalency theory you can easily match 36x24 and MF cameras with Q sized cameras and the other way around, regarding any aspects which depend on focal length, ISO, aperture.

So no need to worry in equivalency theory ghost town.

05-25-2014, 01:30 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Response? He's simply trying to ridicule those "critics and corrections". Cheap tactics like this are disgusting and unprofessional (but I know some people here will find it funny, well, anything goes if it's for the Cause).
Ok. Thanks.
05-25-2014, 01:44 AM   #96
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Don't get me wrong, that was 100% about his "response". I guess I should say thanks for posting it, it's quite interesting to observe certain "equivalence" advocates' response when their theories aren't accepted.
QuoteOriginally posted by HavelockV Quote
The single one point of equivalence theory is that you can take any picture just the same with any camera (and sensor size). That is why it is called "equivalency". It is not called "mine is longer than yours theory". That is only what some less well equipped fanboys try to make of it.
Regarding the equivalency theory you can easily match 36x24 and MF cameras with Q sized cameras and the other way around, regarding any aspects which depend on focal length, ISO, aperture.
Actually you can only take "equivalent" images, matching a limited number of parameters. It's easy to fell into the trap of ignoring everything else, or to misapply it when you shouldn't - the end result is the same: "FF is the best!".
Who on Earth would attempt to use "equivalence" between Q and 645z? Aren't you buying those cameras for completely different purposes?
05-25-2014, 02:00 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Don't get me wrong, that was 100% about his "response". I guess I should say thanks for posting it, it's quite interesting to observe certain "equivalence" advocates' response when their theories aren't accepted.

Actually you can only take "equivalent" images, matching a limited number of parameters. It's easy to fell into the trap of ignoring everything else, or to misapply it when you shouldn't - the end result is the same: "FF is the best!".
Who on Earth would attempt to use "equivalence" between Q and 645z? Aren't you buying those cameras for completely different purposes?
I thought the rebuttal was pretty funny actually. Only problem is that equivalence becomes the hammer that makes the whole world look like a nail. It is often used in contexts where it does not matter. Only if we accept the premise of wanting to create equal output in terms of the five parameters identified by Joseph James does equivalence even come into play. But as you have been trying to valiantly point out in this discussion, that premise must itself be judged in terms of its usefulness. And I'm with you on this: equivalence is just not very usefull.

A good case in point is the alleged deviousness of manufacturers regarding focal length 'equivalence'. I think you commented on that already. As soon as we understand that 35mm focal length equivalence is being used (for historical reasons) as a subsitute shorthand for angle of view, the whole argument just evaporates.

So to me, It's not that the paradigm of equivalence is wrong, it's just that is is irrelevant much of the time.
Cheers

05-25-2014, 03:14 AM   #98
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Well, regardless of what is said I find "Ron"-like characters simply annoying, and not at all funny. My sense of humor (and I assure you, I do have a strong sense of humor) could be very different than others'. I dislike clowns, too.

Thank you for understanding my position Indeed, it is based on 3 points:

1. Usefulness. Indeed, most of the time one would not compare two formats. And when doing it, in many occasions not all parameters would have to match (e.g. if only interested in angle of view) while others of interest to you are not included (but perhaps influenced by this system). Quite often, you might look at things which are different for each format.
I believe equivalence is a word too big for something incomplete and with a limited usefulness.
I believe the "equivalence" that claims how you MUST compare is wrong, because it doesn't care for your needs.

2. Changing the basics. Focal length, aperture, ISO - all have well defined meanings; yet some "equivalence" advocates, Tony for example, would try to redefine them. Even if they don't, it can still cause confusion - a 50mm on m4/3 being "equivalent" to a 100mm on FF, yet if you put that 100mm on m4/3 it won't behave like a 50mm. Doh! - but there are people confused by that.
They're better as they are, thank you. And if the effort of "explaining equivalence" would be put into explaining the basic notions, we'd live in a better world.

3. Lack of precision and consistency.
For example, using the "crop factor" instead of the frame dimensions would hide the aspect ratio (and you don't get similar results if the aspect ratio is different) - that's a precision issue. Using ISO as a measure of noise is inconsistent (there are warnings against that in JJ's article, but some are doing it nevertheless) and inaccurate (noise is not necessarily directly proportional with ISO, and not necessarily the same between different sensors).

Bjarne Stroustrup (the "father" of C++) once said: "Legacy code" often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling. Well, the "legacy" system always works... how about the alternatives?
05-25-2014, 03:38 AM   #99
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I like the video. And other his videos also. They are very enlightening and educating.

But I found one argument, which is not found the answer.

The argument is:
QuoteQuote:
...the fact that the Ricoh is a better-corrected lens design than the full-frame Nikkor is intriguing,... the era of universal superiority for larger lenses and formats is well and truly over.
cromatic abrasion blog
My question is: is it possible this kind of correction of these APS-C/MFT lenses, that all these "equivalent"-maths (from FF comparision) does not make any sense anymore?
05-25-2014, 04:44 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I believe the "equivalence" that claims how you MUST compare is wrong, because it doesn't care for your needs.
Obviously for most if not all buying decisions equivalency has no point at all and they would be quite ill advised to listen to the equivalency-advocates. The logic of real world buyers is (feel free to check with real people outside forums):

Johnboy wants a 36x24 camera for the reason it gving him a little less DoF at the extreme end aperture settings
--> Johnboy invests a shitload of extra money to buy such a 36x24 camera, which gives him the small DoF option, because otherwise his needs are fully fullfilled by a $600 cam. Now he shells out a whopping $1600. So he has paid the camera makers all this extra $1000 money for some extra DoF effects every now and then.
--> The very last thing Johnboy will tolerate from now on is to get the same results as he would get from the $600 camera DoF-wise. He already paid the suckers. A lot.
--> His friend Lisa shoots her $600 camera with a Tamron 17-50/2.8 ($280). Johnboy wants a similar standard zoom to simply protect his $1000 extra investment and still get that tiny extra small DoF, so he needs a Tamron 24-70/2.8 --> $1,150.
05-25-2014, 05:06 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by HavelockV Quote
Obviously for most if not all buying decisions equivalency has no point at all and they would be quite ill advised to listen to the equivalency-advocates. The logic of real world buyers is (feel free to check with real people outside forums):

Johnboy wants a 36x24 camera for the reason it gving him a little less DoF at the extreme end aperture settings
--> Johnboy invests a shitload of extra money to buy such a 36x24 camera, which gives him the small DoF option, because otherwise his needs are fully fullfilled by a $600 cam. Now he shells out a whopping $1600. So he has paid the camera makers all this extra $1000 money for some extra DoF effects every now and then.
--> The very last thing Johnboy will tolerate from now on is to get the same results as he would get from the $600 camera DoF-wise. He already paid the suckers. A lot.
--> His friend Lisa shoots her $600 camera with a Tamron 17-50/2.8 ($280). Johnboy wants a similar standard zoom to simply protect his $1000 extra investment and still get that tiny extra small DoF, so he needs a Tamron 24-70/2.8 --> $1,150.
Funny, but dude get with the program. A Canon EF 24-70mm f/4.0 is all he needs to show his friend Lisa who is boss. I think you had better go back and study the tenets of Equivalism

Last edited by eyeswideshut; 05-25-2014 at 05:07 AM. Reason: typo
05-25-2014, 05:20 AM   #102
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D600 plus 24-85 is cheaper than k3 plus 16-50 the last time I checked.
05-25-2014, 05:30 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
Funny, but dude get with the program. A Canon EF 24-70mm f/4.0 is all he needs to show his friend Lisa who is boss. I think you had better go back and study the tenets of Equivalism
No, he would be just the "equivalent guy" (and even that will need lot of explaining), in order to be the boss he needs at least f/2.8.
05-25-2014, 06:11 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, he would be just the "equivalent guy" (and even that will need lot of explaining), in order to be the boss he needs at least f/2.8.
That would be 'Supremacism' and might not sit well with Lisa.
05-25-2014, 07:12 AM   #105
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learning equivalence = buying the best gear for your purpose (and getting mocked by those who didn't?)
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