[airbass]

If i remember well, Normhead said the DP is good at base ISO, but as Soon as you bump it, it sucks. Compare that to a sensor that has little to not noise up to 1600 ISO. Some very acceptable up to 6400. So the 645z appear far more suited for any situation.

I'm sorry man, but I can see that you are another victim of another myth, this time a high ISO. There were times when the highest available ISO was 1600 eg FUJI NEOPAN and anyone has complained about it or missed photo because of ISO lack. And besides, how you can imagine street photo or war reportage with as huge camera as 645? It's studio or landscape camera where you have as much light as you need either a tripod and as much time as you need, or both as needed.

[ElJamoquio]

I like high ISO. I do F/8 shots on aps-c right now at iso 400 -800 in dim light. So that would need about iso 1600-3200 on 645.

[monochrome]

I'm sorry man, but I can see that you are another victim of another myth, this time a high ISO. There were times when the highest available ISO was 1600 eg FUJI NEOPAN and anyone has complained about it or missed photo because of ISO lack. And besides, how you can imagine street photo or war reportage with as huge camera as 645? It's studio or landscape camera where you have as much light as you need either a tripod and as much time as you need, or both as needed.

I guess I missed that string of posts where users have said they're jumping up and down for the chance to carry a 645 and 4 lenses on remotes and battlefields.

Best tool for the job, n'est-ces pas?

[RuiC]

We are a little over 3 months away from Photokina.

... ...

Sony has 4 FF bodies (A99, A7, A7r, A7s) A99II is rumored to be announced.
Nikon has 6 FF bodies (Df, D610, D800, D800E, D4, D4s)
Canon has 3 FF bodies (5DIII, 1DX, 6D)

..., and Pentax has a stillbirth FF body!!!

[philbaum]

They don't have any problem providing sensors for the 645z. Why would it be an issue for the 24MP FF?

My last post wasn't very clear. My point was that when you buy sensors from Sony, or any sensor manufacturer, you probably are signing up to a contract to buy in quantity. Does anybody know? Is the minimum quanitity like 20,000 sensors or something??? So if you doubt that your company can sell X amount of FF cameras, why would you sign up to a disaster scenario like that, and lose you job over it.

And when you set up a manufacturing line for a specific camera, each machine, has to be setup in a certain way, and for pastic parts, molds have to be made or contracts made with plastic suppliers, staff have to be hired. Pentax does not have unlimited factory space. Parts have to be ordered in advance - so if you're setting up for 20,000 FF cameras, one needs 30,000 shutters, 200,000 specialized fasteners, 30,000 mirror boxes, etc In other words, there's a large overhead expense to setting up a manufacturing line for a certain size of camera, and setting up a repair/warranty system - etc.

With 3 companies out there manufacturing a dozen FF models, why would we need Pentax to build us a FF with a Pentax label on it. I'm just delighted that Pentax is building a MF camera line in addition to the APS, that way, they get to use their technology on more than one line of camera. If you need a Pentax FF to be happy, just buy a $12 label maker and put a Pentax label over the Nikon, Canon or Sony sign, then everyone is happy and Pentax doesn't have to go bankrupt :-)

Since one pretty much has to buy new lenses when moving from APS to FF to MF, whats the big deal anyway. Sure, technically one can use some of their aps lenses on a FF camera, but why would you do that and skip the purpose of buying a FF camera just to reuse some older aps lenses on it. I get it, that some older film body lenses from Pentax could be moved over to a Pentax FF camera and work. But those are primarily older manual lenses with older coatings. And if you want to try them out, one can always buy a A7 FF Sony.

But trying to support too many camera lines is a big financial risk to Pentax. If one needs or wants a FF camera, just sell your existing stuff as necessary and go buy the FF model of you choice like everyone else - there's no shame in that. Its not a linear world, sometimes to head North, you may need to backup a step and go to the West or East a bit to then turn North again. But we are blessed with incredible minds, and we can easily make detours when necessary.

Nikon has tried to be the one stop shopping center for all things photographic - and now its gotten them into a financial bind. Shipments are down 40% and stock prices are at a 5 year low. They've missed so many sales forecasts that Wall Street no longer believes them. So maybe the new paradigm is that camera companies no longer make comprehensive lines of cameras - they choose product niches to compete in. Take Airbus and Boeing, they both are making parts of their planes in different locations around the world and in different states (Boeing) as well. Its not just a black and white world anymore, there's bits of color too :-)

[aurele]

I'm sorry man, but I can see that you are another victim of another myth, this time a high ISO. There were times when the highest available ISO was 1600 eg FUJI NEOPAN and anyone has complained about it or missed photo because of ISO lack.

i was just answering to you about the "so good" sensor of Sigma. Yes, it's a good sensor, at base iso. Not beyond base iso. On the other hand, the 645z is good at base iso, but you can have usable high iso. I'm not saying you HAVE TO use the 645z @1600 /3200/6400 iso, i just say you CAN use it, and still have something good.
Besides, i'm just observing picture of both camera.

And besides, how you can imagine street photo or war reportage with as huge camera as 645? It's studio or landscape camera where you have as much light as you need either a tripod and as much time as you need, or both as needed.

I don't imagine war reportage. No matter the gear. Period. I have the greatest respect for the men and women who does that. They put their life at risk to take picture and show us the truth of war. I honestly don't give a fukc about the gear in that case.

YOU don't think of the 645 as a street camera, and that's fine. I'm ok with it. I do. In fact, i use some 6x6 as a street camera. Fully loaded polaroid too. And both are heavy, somewhat slow to use. They suit my style. And i guess they don't suit yours. but that's ok.
Anyway, it's not because you, a single individual among the crowd of pictures taker, that consider that the 645 is not suited for a task, that it mean it really is. And thank god for that BTW

But by the way, how to demand thousands bucks for picture taken with camera for less than thousand bucks?

AH AH !! you realize that the gear used, no mater the medium, wether it be painting, photography, film, have no real incidence of the price right ? The talent, the name, the results gives the price, not the gear. A painting of Picasso, because it have been made with industrial painting should have less value than one made with the finest oil paint ? Let's face it, no. For picture it's exactly the same.

[monochrome]

But by the way, how to demand thousands bucks for picture taken with camera for less than thousand bucks?

Gosh - I read somewhere that Annie Liebovitz uses an iPhone from time to time - and sells the prints!

[todd]

Gosh - I read somewhere that Annie Liebovitz uses an iPhone from time to time - and sells the prints!

I met a well known LA/Hollywood wedding photographer this year who told me he has shot weddings with his iphone (with little lenses that he mounts on it...)

[ElJamoquio]

I just met a carpenter who builds houses with a jewelers file and small rock.

[ofer4]

Gosh - I read somewhere that Annie Liebovitz uses an iPhone from time to time - and sells the prints!

With the data plan, an iPhone sits north of $1k.

[gazonk]

I think we should stop talking about Full Frame altogether. After all the right term is Small Image Format (Kleinbildformat)

[airbass]

AH AH !! you realize that the gear used, no mater the medium, wether it be painting, photography, film, have no real incidence of the price right ? The talent, the name, the results gives the price, not the gear. A painting of Picasso, because it have been made with industrial painting should have less value than one made with the finest oil paint ? Let's face it, no. For picture it's exactly the same.

Finally, you understand! So what's all this ridiculous discussion about a full frame.

Next, my question about money was rhetorical and at least sarcastic, neither I nor anyone else probably expected an answer. And at the end you will agree, taking pictures of the royal 6x6 format, the film has a soul and no matter what the format of the sensor will have a Pentax, digital image is no longer the same. So probably for this reason until now I shoot my sweet silver Sinar p camera. Although every time it is a big challenge and for this reason I veeeeery well understand the phenomenon of digital cameras.





So no offense, I just wanted to direct our pleasant conversation in the right direction.

[aurele]

So what's all this ridiculous discussion about a full frame.

i'm not sure we are focusing on the same thing, but overall i think we agree.

All i'm saying is that the 645z in the ISO domain, is more flexible than the Sigma Foveon. No more no less.

When it comes to tools, we all have personnal preference, and they are not the same for everybody.

the film has a soul and no matter what the format of the sensor will have a Pentax, digital image is no longer the same

A digital sensor is just a peculiar kind of film to me : it react in a very specific way that gives it's destinctive and clinical look (if no PP is applied, of course).

So probably for this reason until now I shoot my sweet silver Sinar p camera.

Just for this, i really envy you So many new things to play with when you have such a camera

[Poit]

My last post wasn't very clear. My point was that when you buy sensors from Sony, or any sensor manufacturer, you probably are signing up to a contract to buy in quantity. Does anybody know? Is the minimum quanitity like 20,000 sensors or something??? So if you doubt that your company can sell X amount of FF cameras, why would you sign up to a disaster scenario like that, and lose you job over it.

As someone who works in procurement for a large organisation, I would suggest that the pricing structure and overarching contract is most likely a little more involved / complicated than that. We know that Pentax currently procures all of their sensors from Sony, so if I was involved with the Pentax/Ricoh procurement division, I would be seeking discounts across a range of sensors based on total value of sales (ie if I buy $50mil worth of sensors from you I get an xyz discount structure). That way the 'pain' of a single sensor type is spread across all the sensor types you buy. The net result is that you may wear an increase in price for a popular sensor (APS-C) to make a new venture (FF) more viable.

Similarly, Pentax / Ricoh appear to be duplicating technology across platforms (if the 645z is anything to go by), hence reducing the costs of firmware and hardware development costs.

And finally (and perhaps slightly more speculative) Asahi Man, who appears to be 'in the know' to a certain extent, has suggested in the last few days that the Pentax FF will utilise the K-3 body, which again reduces cost of manufacture (and all the associated elements you raise). Which makes perfect sense from a cost perspective, if it's achievable. It's also very clever, as there is no reason apart from vanity and marketing (or the ultra-complex cameras with multiple processors) that Canon or Nikon couldn't do the same.

So, my assessment is slightly more positive than yours. I certainly think it would be to Pentax / Ricoh's advantage to have some skin in the FF game, even if it only means some street cred, and I don't think it needs to cost as much as you suggest (or risk the farm). Current signs are that they have been EXTREMELY clever in planning this, and cutting unnecessary costs. I'm sitting here smiling, in fact, reading back my own logic and realising how clever it all is

I'm an aircraft fan, so I know and understand the disaster that is Boeing and their aircraft development / procurement programs! That's not 'clever', it's a total mess!

Perhaps RICHOH have introduced more colour to the equation than boeing, or yourself, were able to conjur up

[Winder]

And finally (and perhaps slightly more speculative) Asahi Man, who appears to be 'in the know' to a certain extent, has suggested in the last few days that the Pentax FF will utilise the K-3 body, which again reduces cost of manufacture (and all the associated elements you raise).

I think there is a very good chance we see a K-1 announced with the 70-200 F/2.8 and the new FA LTD HD lenses at Photokina.