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06-28-2014, 04:54 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
1) The professional market do not demand FF. Most pros use APS. I haven't seen a single pro with an FF camera. The argument from all pros I know is that no one can tell the difference between an APS images and an FF image (as long as we are not talking about the D800) in any kind of end use of the images (as opposed to pixelpeeping). This include people selling fine-art prints from their own galleries.
2) Mirrorless or not has nothing to do with sensor size per se.
3) Sensor are getting better making the need for larger sensor size less from an image quality point of view. It is also making smaller sensored cameras more relevant (like the Q).
4) Cellphone usage make mor people buy DSLR cameras including FF. This is because it makes more people interested in photography. Those people will eventually buy a real camera...
This is like 3 pages ago, but Im not agree. Last week I was in a wedding photography workshop with Martin Sedacca. More or less 50 photographers, and every single one, had FF (except me). Mi companions all use FF, and even MF. I dont know where you get that data.

Im in Mendoza, Argentina (3rd world?? lol), where is hard to be a photographer, very high gear prices, no support, etc. So I cant even think the gear that pros use in USA, Europe, etc.

Anyway, Im very very agree with your 4th point.

06-28-2014, 05:06 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Strawman argument mixed with not reading my post.
"I say statement A is true"
"Well I say statement B is true"
"A is true"
"B is true"

---------- Post added 06-28-14 at 05:08 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Enrique S Toso Quote
I dont know where you get that data.
Pentax makes the best APS-C cameras, so this is a heavily APS-C biased forum.
06-28-2014, 06:15 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
1) The professional market do not demand FF. Most pros use APS. I haven't seen a single pro with an FF camera. The argument from all pros I know is that no one can tell the difference between an APS images and an FF image (as long as we are not talking about the D800) in any kind of end use of the images (as opposed to pixelpeeping). This include people selling fine-art prints from their own galleries.
2) Mirrorless or not has nothing to do with sensor size per se.
3) Sensor are getting better making the need for larger sensor size less from an image quality point of view. It is also making smaller sensored cameras more relevant (like the Q).
4) Cellphone usage make mor people buy DSLR cameras including FF. This is because it makes more people interested in photography. Those people will eventually buy a real camera...
QuoteOriginally posted by Enrique S Toso Quote
This is like 3 pages ago, but Im not agree. Last week I was in a wedding photography workshop with Martin Sedacca. More or less 50 photographers, and every single one, had FF (except me). Mi companions all use FF, and even MF. I dont know where you get that data.

Im in Mendoza, Argentina (3rd world?? lol), where is hard to be a photographer, very high gear prices, no support, etc. So I cant even think the gear that pros use in USA, Europe, etc.

Anyway, Im very very agree with your 4th point.
I also disagree...strongly.

I'm in Australia, I also shoot weddings, and I have also attended workshops. I have never come across another photographer who makes money from their craft (call them 'professional', 'semi-professional', 'advanced enthusiast' or whatever else you want) who shoots with APS-C.

The last workshop I attended, someone actually looked at my camera and asked "oh, does Pentax make a Full Frame now?", to which I rather ashamedly replied "No, they do not". I think the best way to describe the look on the chap's face, when he realised I was shooting weddings on APS-C, was a mixture of disbelief and sympathy!

At the risk of repeating myself, the benefits of a larger sensor for wedding shooting cannot be overstated. The ability to utilise high ISO settings in a dimly lit church or reception venue, without the need for mood-destroying artificial lighting, is a wedding photographer's dream.

If Pentax/Ricoh development folk went on several excursions with wedding photographers, and then built a FF system around all the demands they observed, the resultant system would be an outstanding all-rounder and, most likely, a best-seller.
06-28-2014, 08:01 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
If Pentax/Ricoh development folk went on several excursions with wedding photographers, and then built a FF system around all the demands they observed, the resultant system would be an outstanding all-rounder and, most likely, a best-seller.
In the film days, lots of wedding shooters used Pentax. Pentax has certainly been in that space, but it kind of dropped out when digital came along. But weddings, of course, remain a HUGE area of commercial activity for photographers, probably the biggest.

I like your suggestion that Pentax build a digital FF system around how wedding photogs work, perhaps after studying wedding photog requirements in camera markets like USA, China, UK, maybe even Australia. It just makes sense. Perhaps they are already doing so. Who knows.

Much of what Ricoh may learn about weddings would also apply to other event and live music photography, so many would benefit.

06-28-2014, 08:47 PM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In the film days, lots of wedding shooters used Pentax. Pentax has certainly been in that space, but it kind of dropped out when digital came along. But weddings, of course, remain a HUGE area of commercial activity for photographers, probably the biggest.

I like your suggestion that Pentax build a digital FF system around how wedding photogs work, perhaps after studying wedding photog requirements in camera markets like USA, China, UK, maybe even Australia. It just makes sense. Perhaps they are already doing so. Who knows.

Much of what Ricoh may learn about weddings would also apply to other event and live music photography, so many would benefit.
Yes, I've heard a few wedding shooters say they used Pentax in the pre-digital era, but were forced to change due to the slow uptake.

I've thought for quite some time now that studying the requirements and workflows of wedding photographers would be an excellent basis on which to develop a new FF offering, not just because (as you say) it's a big industry in the commercial photography world, but also because a system that is great for wedding photographers will also be great for almost any other type of photography (event, portraiture, sport, and landscape).

To be honest with you, the Pentax system already has many of the ingredients for a great wedding system (size, build quality, WR, user interface, image quality, features vs price). The only ingredients lacking in the mix are the larger sensor and benefits that brings (high ISO noise, shallow DoF, and better wide-angle / distortion properties), and a range of fast (f1.4) lenses to take advantage of the improved low-light and DoF performance. Maybe an improved Pro-support network, but that wouldn't be a must-have straight away.

As Asahi Man suggested, a FF in a K-3 style body and with K-3 features, with 24 MP, for around $2,000 would be a killer offering. All they would need to seal the deal is some fast, quality lenses. A new 'pro' line of lenses, also alluded to by Asahi Man...

If only...
06-28-2014, 09:18 PM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Enrique S Toso Quote
This is like 3 pages ago, but Im not agree. Last week I was in a wedding photography workshop with Martin Sedacca. More or less 50 photographers, and every single one, had FF (except me). Mi companions all use FF, and even MF. I dont know where you get that data.

Im in Mendoza, Argentina (3rd world?? lol), where is hard to be a photographer, very high gear prices, no support, etc. So I cant even think the gear that pros use in USA, Europe, etc.

Anyway, Im very very agree with your 4th point.
Bring a Pentax Full Format K1000, tell them you are learning and keep your fingers crossed for Photokina in September.
BTW, Pål Jensen is from Norway - that would place him in the richest country in all of Europe. Maybe there is a lesson in that for us?
Cheers

Last edited by eyeswideshut; 06-28-2014 at 09:23 PM.
06-28-2014, 09:42 PM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
The ability to utilise high ISO settings in a dimly lit church or reception venue, without the need for mood-destroying artificial lighting, is a wedding photographer's dream.
The leap from APS-C to 135 is only about a stop or so, isn't it? (in terms of IQ)
06-28-2014, 09:53 PM   #173
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It should be noted that not all pros are wedding shooters. (And not all wedding shooters are pros ) While FF has advantages for pro photographers, FF is not always a necessity for pro.

Many paid newspaper photojournalists in my area use APS-C Nikons, and have been doing so for years. They show no sign of changing. And some of the guys who do work in the field for Reuters and others have been known to use (and win prizes for) Micro-4/3 cameras like the Panasonic GH3.

But having said all that, every commercial wedding photog in my area that I know shoots FF.

06-28-2014, 10:29 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
.
BTW, Pål Jensen is from Norway - that would place him in the richest country in all of Europe. Maybe there is a lesson in that for us?
Cheers
I bet if you go to Norwegian professionals' sites EXIF data would show FF shooters.
06-28-2014, 11:01 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I bet if you go to Norwegian professionals' sites EXIF data would show FF shooters.
I have no idea what Norwegian photographers use and neither do you. Or do you?
I'm just following Pål on that one. And it is an age old observation that those who actually do have money may not always flaunt it, whereas in poor (and almost bancrupt) Argentina 50 people show up with ff cameras. That was my point actually. Anyway, the great attention lavished by many amateurs and enthusiasts on gear "the pros use" is pretty amusing, don't you think?

Come to think of it though, professionals usually export from raw with EXIF stripped and Scandinavians usually give each other a lot of support. So Hasselblad (Sweden) and Phase One (Denmark) would make a lot of sense.
06-29-2014, 01:59 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
I have no idea what Norwegian photographers use and neither do you. Or do you?
That is reversing the burden of proof, EWS.

If there are stats to back up the claim, we have not been shown them.
06-29-2014, 02:20 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
That is reversing the burden of proof, EWS.

If there are stats to back up the claim, we have not been shown them.
Huh? Reversing the burden of proof? Does anyone care? Scouring Norwegian websites to gauge the ff quotient is about the last thing on my todo list. And who is that "We" who have not been shown stats, anyway?

I was plainly answering Enrique's musings about what the gear situation in richer countries must be like, when in Argentina already 50 people show up all armed with ff gear.
Feel free to contribute if you have something to say to that.
06-29-2014, 02:58 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by eyeswideshut Quote
Huh? Reversing the burden of proof? Does anyone care?

Well, clearly *you* don't require evidence, EyesWideShut ...


If you believe someone's claim that Norwegian pros don't shoot FF (and even double down on the bet with a bizzare cultural theory that they're *too modest* to shoot FF), then as we say, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you!


IIRC, your advice to Pentax on the subject of a full-frame release would be that it did not have video, live view, tethering, SR, or autofocus. [Rolls Eyes]

One would hope that Ricoh executives instead choose to pay attention to real marketing data.

Last edited by clackers; 06-29-2014 at 03:07 AM.
06-29-2014, 03:56 AM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, clearly *you* don't require evidence, EyesWideShut ...


If you believe someone's claim that Norwegian pros don't shoot FF (and even double down on the bet with a bizzare cultural theory that they're *too modest* to shoot FF), then as we say, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you!


IIRC, your advice to Pentax on the subject of a full-frame release would be that it did not have video, live view, tethering, SR, or autofocus. [Rolls Eyes]

One would hope that Ricoh executives instead choose to pay attention to real marketing data.
What is wrong with you? Still sore about the world cup? I certainly understand neither your tone nor your argument. But in turns

- I am completely agnostic on what equipment Norwegian photographers use. If Pål has reason to believe they use APS-C why should I not believe him. He is from Norway, I am not. You seem to have a problem with his claim, I suggest you take it up with him.
- 'Professionals' strip their images of exif data before publication so there is little point in scouring websites as you propose. Besides, I really have better things to do. Feel free to take your own advice, though.
- What you call a bizarre cultural theory is the well known wannabe phenomenon. You have seen it, I'm sure.
- My advice to Pentax? You still sore about that? Because I envision a different camera than you do. Get real!
06-29-2014, 05:15 AM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Strawman argument mixed with not reading my post.
You can't handle the truth, now show me a smaller 36mp camera.
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