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06-30-2014, 06:04 PM   #226
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QuoteQuote:
I have a tiny camera bag. Honestly it's less full with my FF stuff than APS-C - for APS-C, for me, I basically carry primes from 15 mm to 100mm. For FF I feel like zooms are good-enough-for-me.
Yet according to Imagine Resources the image you get from a K-3 and D600 from the same lens are practically identical. in other words, your prime on APS-c should give you better resolution than your zoom on your D600... all I can say is, if I had both, I'd have some side by side samples to show, to help make my point. I'm a big fan of audio/visual aids. But that is time consuming so I can understand why you might not want to do that.

IN my case, I'd have the photos in hand before I even made the statement, but to each his own.

06-30-2014, 06:54 PM   #227
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IMHO, all Pentax needs in for it's entrance into digital FF is something that can form a solid foundation for further system growth. It doesn't need a 'wonder-weapon' that will win the camera wars in one blow.

Something to build a revamped FF lens line-up around, keep current customers, acquire a few new customers, and with performance to at least match Canikony's 'advanced amateur models'. Taking the long-view, they just need a good foundation for year 1, then in Y2 do more, evolve things further in Y3, Y4, Y5 etc.

The recent explosion of FF models from other brands suggests that it's probably easier and cheaper to make a FF now than it ever has been. If Pentax don't do anything, or delay doing something until they have a totally perfect FF camera to present to the market, the market will move on, and it will become harder for Ricoh to join the flow as other brands consolidate their lead. In future, aggressive new FF entrants may even emerge from Korea or China, and without a current stake in the game Pentax will find it even harder to play catch-up.
06-30-2014, 07:11 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Yet according to Imagine Resources the image you get from a K-3 and D600 from the same lens are practically identical. in other words, your prime on APS-c should give you better resolution than your zoom on your D600...
That's what IR said based on an eyeball analysis of a ISO chart.

Look at the two charts back to back, you can download them. The D600 looks a bit better to me.

When you actually run the chart through the computer you see that the K-3 was over-estimated and the D600 was underestimated. The D600 had about 20% better resolution in reality, which was as expected, in line with every other freaking testing site in the world... it would've been even more than that, but we're comparing a camera without an AA filter to a camera with an AA filter.

An improvement of 20% resolution for less money and no moire? Sign me up! Oh wait, I already signed up. The zoom on the D600 is better than the prime on the APS-C. Tests and pictures agree.
06-30-2014, 07:22 PM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Yet according to Imagine Resources the image you get from a K-3 and D600 from the same lens are practically identical.
If you only shoot at base ISO this is true, but then its true of most cameras. Even m4/3 holds up very well at base ISO. If you only shoot at base ISO then M4/3 is more than enough.

From IR:
D610:
"ISO 3200 prints look good up to 13 x 19 inches. High ISO noise is a bit more visible at larger sizes, but at 13 x 19 inches it's more than acceptable."

K-3:
"ISO 3200 yields good 8 x 10 inch prints, with only a mild trace of noise in shadowy areas of our target."

Once you start to move past 800 ISO the FF sensor really starts to separate itself from the APS-C.

06-30-2014, 07:33 PM   #230
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That's only 3 times larger prints, though. That's pretty close.
06-30-2014, 08:45 PM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote

Go out and buy an A7 and quality adapter today, I say. You'll have had months of enjoyable shooting before Pentax produce any K-mount FF, if ever they do.
I bought a nice used Canon 5D to use my legacy lenses FF as designed and a couple EF lenses for AF needs a couple years ago. I bought a Sony A7 kit this year which uses everything that I own including my K-mount lenses which wouldn't work on my 5D. Of course I still have my K5 II.They all have their strong areas, although the A7 has replaced the 5D in most areas.
06-30-2014, 09:08 PM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
The D800 is among-the-best if not the-best at low light;
As a data point, I reach for my Df over my D800 when it comes to low light.
06-30-2014, 09:33 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
As a data point, I reach for my Df over my D800 when it comes to low light.
Sure, there's a few cameras that are better; I said it was among the best. The Df is one of the few that is a bit better than the D800.

07-01-2014, 12:09 AM   #234
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Pfff... I'm quite sure now that the conversations in this thread are an exact copy of the conversations in the Pentax R&D department. And that that is the exact reason why they are so hesitant. You can't please a crowd of which literally everybody has a different taste. They should hire some R&D personel that's not afraid of making a move which doesn't bring everybody in extacy, and finally get things done.
07-01-2014, 12:28 AM   #235
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I'm sure such conversations never occur inside Pentax R&D. Discussions about how to destroy a brand, how to give up on being Pentax and how the iPhone competes with medium format can only occur in internet forums such as this one
Having a lot of work to do (and working!) is not the same as being hesitant; and unlike what we might hear here, there are no shortcuts, no "bright ideas" which would solve everything in one step. Pentax (Ricoh Imaging, actually) has a plan, it's just taking time to implement it and their priorities might not be the same as yours (and, perhaps, mines).

---------- Post added 01-07-14 at 10:32 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
IMHO, all Pentax needs in for it's entrance into digital FF is something that can form a solid foundation for further system growth. It doesn't need a 'wonder-weapon' that will win the camera wars in one blow.

Something to build a revamped FF lens line-up around, keep current customers, acquire a few new customers, and with performance to at least match Canikony's 'advanced amateur models'. Taking the long-view, they just need a good foundation for year 1, then in Y2 do more, evolve things further in Y3, Y4, Y5 etc.
Well said.
Have one competent camera and few lenses (for a start) and build on that. There's no magic, no shortcut, just lot of work involved.
07-01-2014, 12:48 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Sony is already making cameras for Hasselblad.
And Hasselblad is a laughing-stock because of this.
Jah, when people see me using my Pentax they frown/laugh/joke because of the Sony sensor inside. Yes, that sure must be it.
[/sarcasm]
07-01-2014, 01:36 AM   #237
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FYI, this "argument" was already dismissed as being absurd. Repeating it won't make it less so...

L.E. because what you're implicitly claiming is that there is not much difference between doing this:

and doing this:

They both have Sony sensors, right?

Last edited by Kunzite; 07-01-2014 at 02:03 AM.
07-01-2014, 02:13 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
FYI, this "argument" was already dismissed as being absurd. Repeating it won't make it less so...

L.E. because what you're implicitly claiming is that there is not much difference between doing this:

and doing this:

They both have Sony sensors, right?
Hey, are they both from your collection? I particularly admire the enobling effect Haselblad had on Sony in picture #2
07-01-2014, 02:24 AM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
FYI, this "argument" was already dismissed as being absurd. Repeating it won't make it less so...
It was? Then why did you re-iterate the argument by making Hasselblad a "laughingstock" for using Sony? Is there some unwritten rule, that I don't know of, of the maximum amount of Sony parts that a manufacturer is allowed to use?

What if Pentax finally produces some mediocre 24mp FF DSLR this fall? Does that suddenly undo all those years of customers leaving, reputation damage, etc? A Pentax rebadged off brand FF to fill in those YEARS of developement would have done much less damage, don't you think?
07-01-2014, 02:30 AM   #240
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Yes, it was; I don't expect you to admit that, since you're purposely using appeal to ridicule and strawmen as an 'argument'. My answer to kadajawi is not what you're trying to make it be, btw.

Why would Pentax stop making competent cameras and build a mediocre 24mp FF DSLR? That's another absurd idea.
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