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07-10-2014, 11:29 AM - 1 Like   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Eh?! The world of art is 30,000 years old, and the skill of colour understanding is as old as the culture itself. Analog mediums are the mediums of our understanding of an image, not digital devices and computers screen since 10 years ago, all of which vary wildly in their output. You cannot erase 30,000 years of history just like that.

Original art is the original art. That art is the truth. A single photograph is finally a unique original, the unadulterated truth. It is not something reproduced differently on countless screens because right that moment it becomes a lie, same as a copy of Mona Lisa is not Mona Lisa any more.
His / her point is that as people's eyes and perceptions to real physical objects also vary wildly, so there isn't anything crazy about the fact that different displays are calibrated differently. It's just a fact of life that an increasingly digital world has to deal with.

If your response to it is that "physical is the only true way", then it's fine, nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with mee's opinion either. In the end of the day both are just ideas on how art can be viewed acceptably. How you want to treat and present your own art is in the end, up to your choosing.

After all, didn't Mona Lisa become so popular through reproduction of the original art? Isn't that subject to lots of variations as well? By your definition the only one true way to view the Mona Lisa is by visiting her. Any other way is not "true" and any emotional response you get by seeing these non-true-Mona-Lisas are false.

07-10-2014, 11:42 AM   #542
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Oh well, folks will continue to use their smartphones to offer their view of reality, how they see. In time they will extend, reshape, change what smartphone photography can do as the cameras and software in the phone become more capable. One or two of them may turn out to be geniuses who influence the way we all look at the world - or not. Who knows. That's always the way. In the meantime, the 1.75 billion or so people with smartphones may well be relieved, for all we know, that they don't have to apply heavy-duty labels like "photography" or, gulp, "art" to what they do. They can just get on and do it, using or abusing those timeless ideas: good light, a clear subject, a balanced composition, a strong idea.

I'll bet most of them don't give a toss what a few grumpy old men on an obscure internet forum say along the lines of "Bah, weren't like that in my day when we all lived down t'coalmine, lad."

Anyway, maybe that is enough of smartphones. But I think the ideas about them in this thread suggest that for the camera companies to continue to produce me-too cameras, FF or otherwise, as if nothing has happened is rather like going out and spending a lot of money on koi carp only to introduce them to a pond with a huge leak in the bottom. Better first to fix those foundations.
My experience is that the "geniuses" who begin creating art with their smart phones rapidly move on to better cameras due to the limitations they hit with smart phone cameras. Anyway, I hope their continue to be enough that are dissatisfied with their camera phones that there will continue to be SLRs. Worst case scenario in my mind would be that everyone turns into Jogiba, no longer shooting still photos, but just doing screen grabs from their 4K video streams.
07-10-2014, 12:06 PM   #543
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My experience is that the "geniuses" who begin creating art with their smart phones rapidly move on to better cameras due to the limitations they hit with smart phone cameras. Anyway, I hope their continue to be enough that are dissatisfied with their camera phones that there will continue to be SLRs. Worst case scenario in my mind would be that everyone turns into Jogiba, no longer shooting still photos, but just doing screen grabs from their 4K video streams.
Mecrox isn't saying that the ILC cameras will disappear, only that their users would migrate to cellphones for some portion of their photography.

Mee used up a word that I really struggled not to use, but it so perfectly showcases the attitude of the past few pages: elitism. In my opinion photography isn't area exclusive to ILCs, it can be done with any device that can capture photons. Does that mean the smartphone cam the best device for all purposes? No it's not, but it does capture photons and therefore can be used for photography. Whether the user graduates or not, kind of irrelevant to the discussion. No one is saying ILCs will disappear completely, only that smartphones are legitimate devices for certain types of photography for certain photographers, just like all other cameras in existence)
07-10-2014, 12:14 PM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
Mecrox isn't saying that the ILC cameras will disappear, only that their users would migrate to cellphones for some portion of their photography.

Mee used up a word that I really struggled not to use, but it so perfectly showcases the attitude of the past few pages: elitism. In my opinion photography isn't area exclusive to ILCs, it can be done with any device that can capture photons. Does that mean the smartphone cam the best device for all purposes? No it's not, but it does capture photons and therefore can be used for photography. Whether the user graduates or not, kind of irrelevant to the discussion. No one is saying ILCs will disappear completely, only that smartphones are legitimate devices for certain types of photography for certain photographers (just like all cameras are)
I just think the market is polarizing with large sensor cameras on one end and small sensor cameras (mostly in cell phones) on the other end. The only reason that small sensor cameras are so popular is that they are perceived as (a) free (they aren't, but I don't know of a phone that doesn't have one at this point) and (b) they are with people every where their phone is and (c) their image quality is perceived as adequate (I'm not keen on them, but obviously people differ).

In another thread, Falconeye has said that he thinks that most cameras with smaller sensors than 35mm will eventually go away. Of course there is no time frame on that prediction, but if the ILC market shrinks enough, it certainly would reduce options available to photographers out there.

07-10-2014, 12:33 PM   #545
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My experience is that the "geniuses" who begin creating art with their smart phones rapidly move on to better cameras due to the limitations they hit with smart phone cameras. Anyway, I hope their continue to be enough that are dissatisfied with their camera phones that there will continue to be SLRs. Worst case scenario in my mind would be that everyone turns into Jogiba, no longer shooting still photos, but just doing screen grabs from their 4K video streams.
I wasn't using the word "genius" ironically. I know you can't dial them up with an extra topping of crazy hair, but among 1.75 billion people there may well be one or two. Everyone has to start somewhere. Keats had written his entire body of work and passed away by 25. He never had money. Had he been alive today and a photographer rather than a poet and letter-writer of genius, I doubt he would have been among the crowd who hang out with the PhaseOne gang on LL or similar. He might easily have used film and just one or two lenses on affordability grounds. Today, yes, no doubt most folks would migrate to a larger and complex camera for their major work though I am sure they would continue to use the camera in their smartphone. Tomorrow, however, chances are that the cameras in smartphones will be more capable, probably much more capable. Fewer will migrate and most will tend to linger for longer.

I'm with you on your point in your second post about the likelihood of a "hollow middle" as the centre ground of cameras fades away. Surely quite likely even if not just yet.

Last edited by mecrox; 07-10-2014 at 12:40 PM.
07-10-2014, 12:35 PM   #546
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Many old time Pentax users have been wishing for a FF body for years to use all their legacy lenses on - "the way they were meant to be" (i.e. 35mm).

Think about 10 years or more into the future and new technologies. The K mount with it's mechanical aperture linkage and screw drive AF configuration is a dinosaur and a liability with it's large register distance. The K mount throat may also not be large enough for SR systems useful enough on FF. A new all electronic, larger FF mount with a short register is likely in the future in order to remain competitive!! One look through a recent high-res > 2.4 mpix EVF is all we need - to see what the future will be like.

There's an irony here in that if Ricoh/Pentax is looking forward and creates a new mount - I think it will be likely be for FF, and not APS-C. We might well need an adapter just to be able to use legacy FF lenses on a future Ricoh/Pentax FF body !

The next question is what becomes of the K mount - will the Pentax DSLR brand name only exist to then serve an APS-C DSLR minority or fade into history?
What will happen to the Pentax name, as PENTA clearly was founded on the Pentaprism, which will be absent and is perhaps already absolete?

Perhaps Ricoh's plan all along has been to acquire Pentax and the K mount user base only for the short term. This could explain the endless re-hash of (mostly) the same models with only minor differences over the last few years. Also helps to explain the rush to eliminate the Pentax name. Ricoh still gets the short-term benefit of the Pentax brand name, while it buys the time needed to design a new, fresh, forward looking system!
07-10-2014, 12:39 PM   #547
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I see, another "all companies must make mirrorless and mirrorless only" post... combined with the inevitable "Pentax(K-mount)IsDoomed!".

Perhaps things are just what they appear to be, and Ricoh is continuing the K-mount and the Pentax brand for the foreseeable future?
07-10-2014, 12:43 PM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I wasn't using the word "genius" ironically. I know you can't dial them up with an extra topping of crazy hair, but among 1.75 billion people there may well be one or two. Everyone has to start somewhere. Keats had written his entire body of work and passed away by 25. He never had money. Had he been alive today and a photographer rather than a poet and letter-writer of genius, I doubt he would have been among the crowd who hang out with their PhaseOne BS on LL or similar. He might easily have used film and just one or two lenses on affordability grounds. Today, yes, no doubt most folks would migrate to a larger and complex camera for their major work though I am sure they would continue to use the camera in their smartphone. Tomorrow, however, chances are that the cameras in smartphones will be more capable, probably much more capable. Fewer will migrate and most will tend to linger for longer.

I'm with you on your point in your second post about the likelihood of a "hollow middle" as the centre ground of cameras fades away. Surely quite likely even if not just yet.
But you could afford a entry level SLR and a flip phone with a basic plan easier than you could afford a smart phone and a data plan over a two year contract. I picture Keats getting a used K20 and manual focus 50mm lens and making great art with that (although he was more into creating images with words than otherwise).

07-10-2014, 02:37 PM   #549
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The Mirrorless Majority

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I see, another "all companies must make mirrorless and mirrorless only" post... combined with the inevitable "Pentax(K-mount)IsDoomed!".

Perhaps things are just what they appear to be, and Ricoh is continuing the K-mount and the Pentax brand for the foreseeable future?
I'm just (trying) to think logically about this. Maybe it's time that we stop thinking of a company based solely on it's mount. I mean Pentax started with M42, then moved on to the K mount. Does that mean they can't move forward again when needed? I'm sure they will provide an adapter (again). I will give Ricoh a lot more credit that just say they are "steering the course". Things are changing quickly, companies need to adapt. Pentax K, along with Nikon F are both legacy dino mounts (any mount with screw AF and/or mechanical appendages). Nikon has been riding along, doing ok with their DSLR business model. They haven't had to change, but soon will, as well as Canon. The mirror is gonna be history, relegated to a niche sub-category in the near future. The majority is going to be mirrorless simply due to advancing tech advantages and economics. Pick up say an NEX and compare it to a DSLR. There are basically no moving parts in the NEX, it's very simple to produce and a lot cheaper too (more profitable). The companies have figured out that they can charge a premium for a product that costs them much less to produce!

Really when it comes down to it, what makes a Pentax a Pentax today in the electronic age? For me it's just two things. One is the ability to use K mount lenses with open aperture metering, and two, I kinda like the consistent Pentax user interface & menu system.
07-10-2014, 03:35 PM   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
I'm just (trying) to think logically about this.
Sorry, but you made some strong claims - ones that contradicts Ricoh's. Continuation of the Pentax brand is promised (and nothing points to the contrary), the K-3 and the 645Z are just amazing (it's not realistic to expect an all-new camera range in a mere 2 years!). Ricoh Imaging is growing, Ricoh is investing into Ricoh Imaging; there is no doom except on forums such as this one.

QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
Maybe it's time that we stop thinking of a company based solely on it's mount. I mean Pentax started with M42, then moved on to the K mount. Does that mean they can't move forward again when needed?
I'm thinking of this company based on its users. We are more important than people wanting an all mirrorless world think. We (our money) are what keeps Pentax alive.
Sure, a mirrorless system will probably become necessary at some point. So what? If it doesn't suit my needs and preferences, it's not moving forward - I will not follow. And I'd think many Pentax users bought and are buying into Pentax K for DSLRs, not for the occasion of waiting a mirrorless system from them.

QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
I'm sure they will provide an adapter (again).
Adapters are only for people who already decided to make the switch. This can never be an argument for changing the mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
Things are changing quickly, companies need to adapt. Pentax K, along with Nikon F are both legacy dino mounts (any mount with screw AF and/or mechanical appendages). Nikon has been riding along, doing ok with their DSLR business model. They haven't had to change, but soon will, as well as Canon. The mirror is gonna be history, relegated to a niche sub-category in the near future. The majority is going to be mirrorless simply due to advancing tech advantages and economics. Pick up say an NEX and compare it to a DSLR. There are basically no moving parts in the NEX, it's very simple to produce and a lot cheaper too (more profitable). The companies have figured out that they can charge a premium for a product that costs them much less to produce!
So far each of the two major DSLR maker is selling more DSLRs than the entire MILC market. I keep hearing about "soon" and promises... yawn!

By the way, if the mirrorless is so cost effective, how come the MILC makers have trouble making a profit? OTOH, Ricoh Imaging is now profitable (after recovering from the restructuring costs).

P.S. With the DSLR market being several times that of the MILCs, I find it interesting how your post was titled "The Mirrorless Majority".
07-10-2014, 04:11 PM   #551
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I titled the post "The Mirrorless Majority" because that's the way I see things going. The vast majority will be mirrorless, just like today we are in the age of "The Digital Majority" where the vast majority use digital vs. film. Personally I never give much credence to statements made by companies or politicians - it's all blowing in the wind~. You can't deny that a product which requires fewer components and less skill to assemble will be more profitable than one that requires complicated mechanisms and skilled precision assembly. Especially if it can be marketed at a premium. It's just business. Business loves lower costs and higher profits. The tendency is always to refine, miniaturize and reduce complexity & components as much as possible while still delivering the product a user expects and appreciates. Actually, one could argue that we are already living in the mirrorless majority if you include all the smartphone devices.. which are most def mirrorless!

In a way I see this as poetic, because the mirrorless cams are just boxes like cameras of old. But fancy, magic boxes that can do all kinds of amazing things!

I would love to hear your thoughts as to what you think makes a Pentax, a Pentax in the digital age? I also think this is the same question that Ricoh asked themselves about the Pentax brand .. imho.
07-10-2014, 06:33 PM   #552
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Mirrorless and non-mirrorless are not either/or choices.
Neither is FF vs APS-C vs micro 4/3 vs 1 inch sensors vs smartphones (or film vs digital).

It's entirely possible for a user to buy into and use several of these options at once. Too many times these discussions lapse into simple binary choices for users (or market directions) that aren't real. It's a complex eco-system, and will remain so.
07-10-2014, 10:31 PM - 1 Like   #553
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QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
I would love to hear your thoughts as to what you think makes a Pentax, a Pentax in the digital age? I also think this is the same question that Ricoh asked themselves about the Pentax brand .. imho.
I think its a mistake to consider Pentax to be some subset of hardware. What makes Pentax a Pentax is a philosophy to provide a superb shooting tool via ergonomics, size, IQ effectiveness, and price efficiency. Some companies are not about making a camera an effective shooting tool but about making a camera that sells. A camera that is a dream to use, is not always the same as a camera that sells well in the short term.
07-10-2014, 11:29 PM   #554
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QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
I titled the post "The Mirrorless Majority" because that's the way I see things going. The vast majority will be mirrorless, just like today we are in the age of "The Digital Majority" where the vast majority use digital vs. film.
That's called hype - promoting a technology before it's ready, and attempting to hurt the well established competitors because they (supposedly) will become obsolete "soon".
I'm almost immune to hype.

QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
Personally I never give much credence to statements made by companies or politicians - it's all blowing in the wind~.
And what's the alternative, to make up FUD and believe in it?

QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
In a way I see this as poetic, because the mirrorless cams are just boxes like cameras of old. But fancy, magic boxes that can do all kinds of amazing things!
Nope, all the magic is forever gone, replaced by consumerism and gadgetry. But marketing tells you this is not true, that you should love the mirrorless and hype it and how the DSLRs are obsolete because they're - the horror! - mechanical.

QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
I would love to hear your thoughts as to what you think makes a Pentax, a Pentax in the digital age? I also think this is the same question that Ricoh asked themselves about the Pentax brand .. imho.
Definitely not making a cheaper, less complex product.
I'll go with philbaum's "a philosophy to provide a superb shooting tool via ergonomics, size, IQ effectiveness, and price efficiency". If you want more details, you can look at the current and past products - the best viewfinder in their class, solid construction, in-body stabilization, Limiteds...
It's not easy to put it into words, and perhaps that's why their marketing is not extremely effective. A generic product with nice specs on paper, works well, measures better (!) and there's a lot of cost cutting where reviewers and specs sheet won't look - that would be a "digital age" approach. But in this case, you'd have to use their products, and you'll instantly recognize: yes, it's a Pentax!
07-11-2014, 01:00 AM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'll go with philbaum's "a philosophy to provide a superb shooting tool via ergonomics, size, IQ effectiveness, and price efficiency". If you want more details, you can look at the current and past products - the best viewfinder in their class, solid construction, in-body stabilization, Limiteds...
"A philosophy to provide a superb shooting tool via ergonomics, size, IQ effectiveness, and price efficiency" That truly sounds like a very nice philosophy and seems to be the one Pentax is applying. But each and everybodies view of good ergonomics, size, IQ, and price efficiency varies as much as there are people. In Pentax case it's equal to: "We try to please everybody and thus fail to really shine in anything due to all the compromises." Which is, exactly what you get to see when you look at the current and past products. What Pentax entails seems to change A LOT.

They seem to find compactness so very important, that they were prepared to sacrifice photographic usability: several stops and IQ in many of their lenses to make them as small as possible. But with their camera bodies they suddenly find compactness not so important anymore, refusing to modernize and sacrifice features that don't even influence the photographic usability. A feature, that they clearly can't even get to work properly. You'd think they would be happy to dump it.

IBIS? Screwdrive? Cool, customers don't need to pay for separate motors and stabilisation with each and every lens purchase. Pah wrong! They nerfed that advantage instead of advertising it.

K-01 line? Stopped before they even saw if people liked it or not.

There's no philosophy or direction to which they really stick to.

I wonder how many users fled because of that. Or how many are just waiting, just to see how everything is panning out. And to see if they ever get any direction to which they stick.

Sorry, another rant from me. I admit to being frustrated and venting... Frustrated by Pentax repair center!
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