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07-11-2014, 01:05 AM   #556
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But you could afford a entry level SLR and a flip phone with a basic plan easier than you could afford a smart phone and a data plan over a two year contract. I picture Keats getting a used K20 and manual focus 50mm lens and making great art with that (although he was more into creating images with words than otherwise).
Who would want a basic flip phone?


I've had the first or second camera phone ever. The quality of the camera was atrocious. The phone I had after that (the first with UMTS AFAIK) had a slightly better camera. The phone (second Android phone) after that was reasonable, though not good. My current phone has a perfectly decent camera, as long as I keep the lens clean and don't attempt to shoot at night. Apparently it has a mode now that allows me to take photos with shallow DoF... seems to work quite ok, though my phone is too slow to do the calculations.


Some phones have a zoom lens these days, some have a relatively large sensor (2/3" or bigger). Some phones can measure depth and thus do photos with shallow DoF. Low light capabilities keep improving. User interfaces keep improving, with some phones you can set ISO, exposure etc.. There are different lenses you can attach on the phone. Isn't photography about the composition, the story you're telling? I don't care if the photographer has taken the photo in manual mode, what counts is the result. I know a talented photographer who works in A mode, or uses a Polaroid or Holga or something. But her compositions and ideas are great.


I think if anything, the general trend is towards smaller, lighter cameras. And it's Pentax' strength anyway.


Btw. I've just seen that LG has shown an OLED screen that is transparent without being hazy (LCD doesn't work because it'd need a backlight). Put that into the viewfinder of a DSLR. It could be used for different overlays, including perhaps a rough histogram thanks to the new RGB light meter (I'd be all over that feature!). It could also show the photo taken after the shot (so you don't have to take the camera from your face to crimp the photo), and it could of course also be used as an EVF.


(I know that Fuji has something a bit like that, but IIRC it didn't work as good as I hoped it would, and doing it for a DSLR is a bit different).

---------- Post added 11-07-14 at 10:10 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Sincere question - would you mind elaborating? What smartphone, what DSLR, what part of the smartphone is faster? If it's connectivity related I completely agree. If it's the picture-taking-itself, I've had completely the opposite conclusion.
Samsung Galaxy Nexus (sadly in recent times it turned into an absolute turd... sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's really slow. But when it's fast...). My DSLR is a K-5, and it's in a bag. Taking it out of there, especially when it might rain and I put my umbrella in there, can take a bit. At least longer than using my smartphone, which is in my hand anyway (the headphone jack is damaged, I don't want to damage it any further when listening to podcasts, so I try to avoid putting it in my pocket. And sometimes I have the wrong lens on my K-5 (well, often I have... I mostly use it with a 50mm, if I want something wider I'll have to change the lens). Also sometimes using a DSLR draws too much attention.

07-11-2014, 01:25 AM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
"A philosophy to provide a superb shooting tool via ergonomics, size, IQ effectiveness, and price efficiency" That truly sounds like a very nice philosophy and seems to be the one Pentax is applying. But each and everybodies view of good ergonomics, size, IQ, and price efficiency varies as much as there are people. In Pentax case it's equal to: "We try to please everybody and thus fail to really shine in anything due to all the compromises." Which is, exactly what you get to see when you look at the current and past products. What Pentax entails seems to change A LOT.
Why are you with Pentax, if you don't like their product philosophy? Just to tell us you don't like it?

No, Pentax definitely isn't trying to please everybody. And every product is a compromise, I like Pentax "compromises" the best.
The only significant change on a "philosophy" level I saw since the first DSLR is a significant improvement in performance. Pentax cameras weren't fast (well, in the film's days we had the MZ-S and the Z1-p).

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
They seem to find compactness so very important, that they were prepared to sacrifice photographic usability: several stops and IQ in many of their lenses to make them as small as possible. But with their camera bodies they suddenly find compactness not so important anymore, refusing to modernize and sacrifice features that don't even influence the photographic usability. A feature, that they clearly can't even get to work properly. You'd think they would be happy to dump it.
Nonsense. The answer isn't always the fastest, biggest lens you could buy.
Pentax is the only maker with products for normal hands; yes, they value compactness but not the kind of compactness taken to the extreme we're seeing in the MILC arena (for that, there's the Q).

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
K-01 line? Stopped before they even saw if people liked it or not.
Are you sure about that? Because I clearly remember how "well" people were receiving the K-01. Perhaps Pentax saw exactly this, and cancelled the new lens line.
07-11-2014, 02:49 AM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Who would want a basic flip phone?





.
John Keats.
07-11-2014, 03:08 AM   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why are you with Pentax, if you don't like their product philosophy? Just to tell us you don't like it?
I'm waiting for a camera that actually matches their ltd-lens-line philosophy. Other people are STILL waiting for an FF camera, so I'm not all that extreme yet. LOL!

Seriously though, I'm not prepared to sell of so much equipment so far under its value. Plus, it's very good at what it does.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Nonsense. The answer isn't always the fastest, biggest lens you could buy.
No, it's the biggest fastest body.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Are you sure about that? Because I clearly remember how "well" people were receiving the K-01. Perhaps Pentax saw exactly this, and cancelled the new lens line.
It's the best example of the compromises getting in the way of progress. They were afraid to exploit the advantage of going mirrorless. Kept the non-functional mirrorbox just to keep K-mount users happy. Look how it crashed and burned.

Nevertheless, there's a whole chorus of people that want it to get a follow-up. Even I would have liked to see those into-the-body-protruding-lenses come to fruition prior to cancellation of the entire project. IMHO, they should have been introduced with such a lens to begin with. I don't even like the K-01, but I do recognize that the concept would have suited a lot of people perfectly... If they would have pushed through on that philosophy.

Why do you think there's 1001+ speculation threads? You never know what they come up with, or if they come up with something. And then you never know if they're going to stick with it.

07-11-2014, 03:49 AM   #560
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But you could afford a entry level SLR and a flip phone with a basic plan easier than you could afford a smart phone and a data plan over a two year contract. I picture Keats getting a used K20 and manual focus 50mm lens and making great art with that (although he was more into creating images with words than otherwise).
I'm with you on Keats; and I expect that Wordsworth and Coleridge with their interest in long outdoor walks might well have been Pentax men, though, sigh, Coleridge might have been tempted to keep phials of laudanum in the battery compartment. However, I imagine that being a teenager and using grandad's phone in the form of a flippy would be social death. They all want smartphones, at least the ones around here do. That's partly because only smartphones do things like Facetime, panos and instant videos to send around or use as a kind of diary. Honestly, that generation's take on life is very, very different which is a an excellent thing imho (it's not as if the previous generation has made a great fist of running the planet)
07-11-2014, 04:46 AM   #561
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I'm waiting for a camera that actually matches their ltd-lens-line philosophy. Other people are STILL waiting for an FF camera, so I'm not all that extreme yet. LOL!
The K-3 and K-5 series are matching the DA Limiteds quite well, I'd say

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
It's the best example of the compromises getting in the way of progress. They were afraid to exploit the advantage of going mirrorless. Kept the non-functional mirrorbox just to keep K-mount users happy. Look how it crashed and burned.

Nevertheless, there's a whole chorus of people that want it to get a follow-up. Even I would have liked to see those into-the-body-protruding-lenses come to fruition prior to cancellation of the entire project. IMHO, they should have been introduced with such a lens to begin with. I don't even like the K-01, but I do recognize that the concept would have suited a lot of people perfectly... If they would have pushed through on that philosophy.
If by "afraid" you're talking about Hoya managers, always thinking of cost cutting and their precious margins, you're probably right. So Pentax had to reuse the SLR hardware with as few changes as possible. Maybe, with more R&D funding, or with a different exterior design...
Or maybe it was just an experiment - they wanted to see if it would work, and it didn't really. Pentax did quite a few such experiments in the past (e.g. SLR design variations), and even under Hoya (Q series, colored bodies). Not all of them worked, but they weren't afraid to experiment.

Anyway, I think the basic idea was sound - a mirrorless which would add to, not compete with the K-mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Why do you think there's 1001+ speculation threads? You never know what they come up with, or if they come up with something. And then you never know if they're going to stick with it.
Some Pentaxians are always unhappy, constantly looking for something else than what Pentax is offering.
Other Pentaxians are buying Pentax products.
07-11-2014, 05:44 AM   #562
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One thing Pentax can do is redesign the camera infrastructure inside. It's like looking at the production off airplanes where there were plains that where modern and those who still had old school wired infrastructure.

Looking at the stripped K-01:
http://thenewcamera.com/naked-pentax-k-01/

and compare that to the stripped Nex 7:
http://sonyalphanex.blogspot.nl/2012/02/sony-nex-7-stripped-at-cp2012.html

one can see that a new design internal can make a camera work differently. This is regardless the size off the sensor and the question wheater there is a mirror behind the K-mount or not.
07-11-2014, 05:53 AM   #563
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Some people love Fords, everyone in their family has a Ford, some people like Toyotas and everyone in their family has a Toyota. Some people hop from one brand to another looking for specific features... many of which are marketing hogwash. Some people are more prone to marketing hogwash than others, and don't really appreciate what they have, always looking for the next new thing.

I'm happy using my camera. When someone comes and says "Pentax has to do this and this and this." They are basing that on their preferences..
I have my own preferences. From my corner, people asking Pentax to make a mirror-less or a new mount.. you have to ask why? Pentax has survived as the ultimate champion and guardian of the K-mount. If they get away from that, what exactly are they?

I know it's a little hostile but if your preferences are such that you want mirror less and a new mount, I personally hope Pentax ignores you. I like Pentax the way it is. Like Nikon and Canon and many other companies, they already make or have available a lot of stuff I can't afford. Maybe when I have my 250-600 and my 560mm, my 31, 43 and 77 and 15 ltds... I'll think of investing in something else. SO far, I haven't even explored what's available for K-mount and APS_c. And most of these folks whining for EVFs and FF's haven't either. Well everyone follows their own interest. But so far, there is not one image I've seen taken with a mirror less or new mount that couldn't have been taken on a Pentax. So you have to ask, what is this about? It's definitely not the images.

07-11-2014, 06:16 AM   #564
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I know it's a little hostile but if your preferences are such that you want mirror less and a new mount, I personally hope Pentax ignores you. I like Pentax the way it is. Like Nikon and Canon and many other companies, they already make or have available a lot of stuff I can't afford. Maybe when I have my 250-600 and my 560mm, my 31, 43 and 77 and 15 ltds... I'll think of investing in something else. SO far, I haven't even explored what's available for K-mount and APS_c. And most of these folks whining for EVFs and FF's haven't either. Well everyone follows their own interest. But so far, there is not one image I've seen taken with a mirror less or new mount that couldn't have been taken on a Pentax. So you have to ask, what is this about? It's definitely not the images.
Like you said, it's partly about preference. In my opinion we all care about Pentax and want to see it succeed so everyone offers their own opinion on what Pentax should be doing.

I'm with you though, I think Ricoh Pentax is in the right track and I still have alot of trust for them. Innovations in recent years have been pretty amazing. Just need to get that QC for some lenses sorted out!
07-11-2014, 06:27 AM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
Like you said, it's partly about preference. In my opinion we all care about Pentax and want to see it succeed so everyone offers their own opinion on what Pentax should be doing.

I'm with you though, I think Ricoh Pentax is in the right track and I still have alot of trust for them. Innovations in recent years have been pretty amazing. Just need to get that QC for some lenses sorted out!
And I absolutely don't feel Pentax has to do everything. If at some point I buy an A7r for landscape or an A7s, so i can use my pentax glass on FF... to me that's not because Pentax didn't do what they should do. It's because Sony did what they do. I can be happy with what Sony does and happy with what Pentax does at the same time. I really like my Pentax gear. But not every camera I own has to be a Pentax.
07-11-2014, 06:50 AM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
Just need to get that QC for some lenses sorted out!
Not only in the lenses! My first K-5 had mirror flapping. My K-3 has it. If I didn't know better, I would say they've been unable to fix it for multiple models on end.
07-11-2014, 07:18 AM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Not only in the lenses! My first K-5 had mirror flapping. My K-3 has it. If I didn't know better, I would say they've been unable to fix it for multiple models on end.
Was it mirrorflapping with the K-5? There where reports for camera freeze for the K-5.
07-11-2014, 09:28 AM   #568
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Not only in the lenses! My first K-5 had mirror flapping. My K-3 has it. If I didn't know better, I would say they've been unable to fix it for multiple models on end.
Have you installed the latest firmware version, 1.10 isn't it? It seemed to me that the later K5's didn't have it either. I've been lucky i guess, neither my K5 or K3 have shown it.
07-11-2014, 09:39 AM   #569
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QuoteOriginally posted by digital029art Quote
The majority is going to be mirrorless simply due to advancing tech advantages and economics. Pick up say an NEX and compare it to a DSLR. There are basically no moving parts in the NEX, it's very simple to produce and a lot cheaper too (more profitable). The companies have figured out that they can charge a premium for a product that costs them much less to produce!
Then why have companies specializing in mirrorless cameras lost so much money?

The trouble with this sort of analysis is that it ignores one very important factor. Cameras are pretty useless without lenses, and lenses don't fit neatly into the no moving parts/simplicity/economic paradigm. The evolution of lenses has been toward more, rather than less complexity. There was a time not so long ago when most lenses were fairly simple primes. Then manufacturers started making zoom lenses. Then they added AF, and then AF motors; and then SR. Advances in digital sensor technology have necessitated a greater emphasis on improving the optical performance of lenses, which, alas, can only be accomplished by greatly increasing their cost. Although lenses have become more complex and heavier, they have enjoyed only modest savings benefit compared to cameras. We have seen dramatic, even revolutionary changes in cameras over the last 30 years; relatively speaking, changes in lenses have been considerably more evolutionary and modest.

Now because of the cost of lenses and that fact that improvements in the technology of optics is much slower, lenses tend to be a long-term investments, cameras short-term investments. The dynamic that comes into play is that lenses end up having a greater significance than cameras. In other words, once a company has produced and released a certain number of high end lenses, the tendency will be to make cameras to fit the lenses, rather than the other way around. The problem with the NEX is that, despite the absence of moving parts, it does not work well with most of the mid-range or better lenses that serious photographers either already own or want to own. It's too damn small, and was designed to be the smallest APS-C ILC, rather than to work well with the sort of lenses that most enthusiasts and professionals wish to use. Small cameras are all fine and good -- provided they are matched by small lenses. If I'm shooting large lenses -- and sometimes I must -- I want that large lens matched and balanced by a large camera. Nor is it simply a matter of ergonomics or comfort. A larger camera may be necessary to combat shake problems. I do volunteer photography for the local zoo. This involves shooting my DA* 300 hand-held, sans tripod. In order to properly stabilize that lens with the camera, I had to buy a battery grip. My K-5 was too small to attain the balance necessary to get sharp shots out of that lens. I had to make the camara larger (and more complex!) to get the shots the zoo needed to raise funds for further development. Right now there is a five foot print of one of my shots hanging near the entrance of the zoo. That shot would not have been possible if I were shooting with a NEX. A much larger camera was absolutely necessary to attain the requisite resolution.

If larger cameras are required (to match with bigger lenses that sometimes must be used in serious photography), then there's no point in changing mounts. We have millions of SLR lenses, some of very good quality and quite expensive to produce, floating around. These lenses make the most sense when matched with cameras with SLR mounts. Whatever economic gains might be acquired by making a camera with "no moving parts" will be lost by orphaning all that fine and expensive SLR glass. Nor is it even necessary to change mounts in order to make the "no moving part" camera that the gearheads (but hardly anyone else) drool over. Just make a K-01 type camera, and you're done. No angst about new mounts; no orphaned lenses; no wasting of precious optics. The only issue is: the market is simply not ready for that type of camera; nor does anyone know when or if it ever will be.
07-11-2014, 05:34 PM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Who would want a basic flip phone?
me! .... just purchased one last week $65- a Samsung, its a beautiful thing, it makes phone calls
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