Full Frame Not Practical in the Long Run?

Clavius · 06-30-2014, 06:56 AM

So, having Sony build a K-mount A7 with a Pentax label is bad. But the current scenario where Ricoh buys the sensors from Sony, the mainboard from X, the memory from Y, the processor from Z, lenses from Tokina or Tamron, etc and then slaps on a Pentax lable, is OK?!?

That does not compute.

The heart of the camera, the sensor, is Sony anyway. In that respect they're already selling rebadged Sony gear as it is.

Kunzite · 06-30-2014, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by Na Horuk

Nah, the A7 wouldnt be a flagship. I read here that a lot of people prefer the K-3 in every way. But the A7 rebrand would be FF, so it would give an option to those who now don't have an option of a native K-mount FF. And hey, even the sensors in Pentax cameras are already Sony brand. And isn't the shutter mechanism also made by some other company? And Pentax worked with Tamron on a couple lenses (going both ways). Some people are already using Sony cameras for K-mount glass. They would probably switch back just to get AF and all the automation with their Pentax glass (and Pentax could improve the Menus, interface, add green button..)
Because the lenses are the true investment, camera bodies come and go, especially digital ones

It would be the most expensive K-mount camera.

Making the camera is not an issue for Pentax/Ricoh Imaging, it's no more difficult than making an APS-C camera. What's difficult is to (re)start a "full frame" product line.

Again, there is a huge difference between using non-Pentax components (which is a given, it makes no sense to try and manufacture everything in-house) and rebadging other maker's product. The Pentax K-3, with its Sony sensor, Fujitsu processor, Seiko (?) shutter etc is a genuine Pentax product. The Sony A7 with a hacked K-mount and sold under the Pentax label would be a rebadged Sony hack.

normhead · 06-30-2014, 07:02 AM

Quote:

It appears to me you're arguing against a Pentax "full frame" product line

If you'd followed the thread, I was responding to some one who said that Pentax couldn't afford to develop an FF. So my argument was, "If you're not going to do that do this."

So no I'm not, but if Pentax isn't going to develop an FF product line, this is the least they should do. Or at least develop an adapter that lets an A7 camera make full use of the AF lenses capabilities.

Clavius · 06-30-2014, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

It would be the most expensive K-mount camera.

Making the camera is not an issue for Pentax/Ricoh Imaging, it's no more difficult than making an APS-C camera. What's difficult is to (re)start a "full frame" product line.

Again, there is a huge difference between using non-Pentax components (which is a given, it makes no sense to try and manufacture everything in-house) and rebadging other maker's product. The Pentax K-3, with its Sony sensor, Fujitsu processor, Seiko (?) shutter etc is a genuine Pentax product. The Sony A7 with a ~~hacked~~ K-mount and sold under the Pentax label would be a rebadged Sony ~~hack~~.

Not hacked. The mount would be licensed of course. No need to mis out on licensing fee.

Kunzite · 06-30-2014, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

So, having Sony build a K-mount A7 with a Pentax label is bad. But the current scenario where Ricoh buys the sensors from Sony, the mainboard from X, the memory from Y, the processor from Z, lenses from Tokina or Tamron, etc and then slaps on a Pentax lable, is OK?!?

That does not compute.

That's because you are missing the most important step from buying components to having a finished product on which you can slap your brand.
Most Pentax lenses by far are designed in house, by the way - they're not bought from "Tokina or Tamron". Let's not use misinformation as "arguments".

---------- Post added 30-06-14 at 05:05 PM ----------

Originally posted by Clavius

Not hacked. The mount would be licensed of course. No need to mis out on licensing fee.

Putting a K-mount on a camera not designed for a SLR mount is a hack. Licencing won't change that.

ChristianRock · 06-30-2014, 07:08 AM

An A7 with a K-mount, sorry but I think that's a silly idea. It would be a different camera - it would have an empty mirror box just like the K-01. And it would then be mercilessly pounded for being so huge and so inferior to the Sony in terms of ergonomics.
Yeah that's exactly what Pentax/Ricoh needs...

If you want the A7 just get the A7 and put a K adapter on it.

Clavius · 06-30-2014, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

That's because you are missing the most important step from buying components to having a finished product on which you can slap your brand.

Ah... You think the actual assembly is done by Pentax employees? That's actually one of the most popular things to outsource. Maybe seconded only by software engineering. I can't name a single company still doing that themselves.

Originally posted by Kunzite

Putting a K-mount on a camera not designed for a SLR mount is a hack. Licencing won't change that.

That would make the K-01 a hack too then?

Kunzite · 06-30-2014, 07:22 AM

Of course not, the factories in Philippines and Vietnam are just for show. Pentax is not doing any R&D whatsoever, their products are as generic as it gets and you can't actually find any difference, nothing at all, between a K-3 and an APS-C Sony mirrorless.

Happy?

normhead · 06-30-2014, 07:25 AM

Well anyway, it was good i could amuse you guys for a while, happy to be of service and all that.

Clavius · 06-30-2014, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Well anyway, it was good i could amuse you guys for a while, happy to be of service and all that.

I seriously didn't think it was such a strange idea at all. And Pentax themselves don't either. They didn't have any problem with Samsung using their mount. Or with Samsung rebranding K10D's. I still have the D-Xenogon 100mm macro. Which really is just a DFA 100mm with Schneider Kreuznach glass, but cooler.

The other way round, maybe? If Pentax ever introduces an FF camera, they could team with Sony to use the FE mount. That way Pentax could start marketing FE mount lenses. They source the sensor from Sony... Why not the mount too?

Kunzite · 06-30-2014, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by normhead

If you'd followed the thread, I was responding to some one who said that Pentax couldn't afford to develop an FF. So my argument was, "If you're not going to do that do this."

So no I'm not, but if Pentax isn't going to develop an FF product line, this is the least they should do. Or at least develop an adapter that lets an A7 camera make full use of the AF lenses capabilities.

At some point one has to step in and say: "if they can't do at least this, they won't do it". There are no shortcuts, and even if there were - they're not worth pursuing.
For example, Pentax developing an adapter to encourage Pentaxians migrating towards Sony is not a good idea IMHO

Clavius · 06-30-2014, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

For example, Pentax developing an adapter to encourage Pentaxians migrating towards Sony is not a good idea IMHO

But doing nothing and waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter is a good idea then?

normhead · 06-30-2014, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

At some point one has to step in and say: "if they can't do at least this, they won't do it". There are no shortcuts, and even if there were - they're not worth pursuing.
For example, Pentax developing an adapter to encourage Pentaxians migrating towards Sony is not a good idea IMHO

If Pentax doesn't want the FF business, it doesn't mean there aren't many who wish they did. A Pentax branded Sony could sell a lot of FF glass. I'm not sure what the downside would be, especially since if there was a Pentax branded mirror less, Pentax could still do a Pentax DSLSR.

I'm just not seeing the downside, especially for the A7s, I think we can all agree the biggest weakness with APS-c as done by Pentax is there simply is no adequate low light option. And realistically, there never is going to be a Pentax "s" version, even if they do go FF.

A 12 MP low light sensor in an FF body smaller than a K-3, what's not to like? Pentax is never going to do it, Sony already has.

Kunzite · 06-30-2014, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

But doing nothing and waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter is a good idea then?

They're not doing nothing; in fact I suspect they're quite busy (e.g. expanding the production capacity).
Waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter, well... nobody at Ricoh or Sony is considering this option.

Originally posted by normhead

If Pentax doesn't want the FF business, it doesn't mean there aren't many who wish they did. A Pentax branded Sony could sell a lot of FF glass. I'm not sure what the downside would be, especially since if there was a Pentax branded mirror less, Pentax could still do a Pentax DSLSR.

I'm just not seeing the downside, especially for the A7s, I think we can all agree the biggest weakness with APS-c as done by Pentax is there simply is no adequate low light option. And realistically, there never is going to be a Pentax "s" version, even if they do go FF.

A 12 MP low light sensor in an FF body smaller than a K-3, what's not to like? Pentax is never going to do it, Sony already has.

Exactly what problem are you ("we") trying to solve with this?

If the existence of a K-mount camera would sell a lot of FF glass, then why not making the camera themselves? They certainly are capable of doing that.
There is nothing about Sony that would make people buy more Pentax lenses. I doubt a more expensive and larger (in an awkward way) Sony is more compelling than the original. I doubt it would attract new customers. I doubt people asking for this would actually buy it.

jsherman999 · 06-30-2014, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

They're not doing nothing; in fact I suspect they're quite busy (e.g. expanding the production capacity).
Waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter, well... nobody at Ricoh or Sony is considering this option.

Exactly what problem are you ("we") trying to solve with this?

If the existence of a K-mount camera would sell a lot of FF glass, then why not making the camera themselves? They certainly are capable of doing that.
There is nothing about Sony that would make people buy more Pentax lenses. I doubt a more expensive and larger (in an awkward way) Sony is more compelling than the original. I doubt it would attract new customers. I doubt people asking for this would actually buy it.

I also don't think it gains anything or is even worth the effort to involve Sony so heavily in the body aside from the sensor.

Pentax can make the FF body in just about any form they want, the main problem has always been getting new AF-K lenses spun up with existing design teams and factory lines. It's a resource/capacity/capital problem, mainly centered around the lenses.

The 645z proves they can make a fantastic, modern, state-of-art large-format camera body. Ming Thein has said his 645z CMOS images downsampled to D4-sized 'blows his D4 out of the water'. Coupled with the much faster AF and less image-display lag than the 645D, etc, that 645z is an example of what Pentax can do utilizing a component-integration strategy.

.

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06-30-2014, 06:56 AM	#196
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	So, having Sony build a K-mount A7 with a Pentax label is bad. But the current scenario where Ricoh buys the sensors from Sony, the mainboard from X, the memory from Y, the processor from Z, lenses from Tokina or Tamron, etc and then slaps on a Pentax lable, is OK?!? That does not compute. The heart of the camera, the sensor, is Sony anyway. In that respect they're already selling rebadged Sony gear as it is.

06-30-2014, 06:58 AM	#197
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Na Horuk Nah, the A7 wouldnt be a flagship. I read here that a lot of people prefer the K-3 in every way. But the A7 rebrand would be FF, so it would give an option to those who now don't have an option of a native K-mount FF. And hey, even the sensors in Pentax cameras are already Sony brand. And isn't the shutter mechanism also made by some other company? And Pentax worked with Tamron on a couple lenses (going both ways). Some people are already using Sony cameras for K-mount glass. They would probably switch back just to get AF and all the automation with their Pentax glass (and Pentax could improve the Menus, interface, add green button..) Because the lenses are the true investment, camera bodies come and go, especially digital ones It would be the most expensive K-mount camera. Making the camera is not an issue for Pentax/Ricoh Imaging, it's no more difficult than making an APS-C camera. What's difficult is to (re)start a "full frame" product line. Again, there is a huge difference between using non-Pentax components (which is a given, it makes no sense to try and manufacture everything in-house) and rebadging other maker's product. The Pentax K-3, with its Sony sensor, Fujitsu processor, Seiko (?) shutter etc is a genuine Pentax product. The Sony A7 with a hacked K-mount and sold under the Pentax label would be a rebadged Sony hack.

06-30-2014, 07:02 AM	#198
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Quote: It appears to me you're arguing against a Pentax "full frame" product line If you'd followed the thread, I was responding to some one who said that Pentax couldn't afford to develop an FF. So my argument was, "If you're not going to do that do this." So no I'm not, but if Pentax isn't going to develop an FF product line, this is the least they should do. Or at least develop an adapter that lets an A7 camera make full use of the AF lenses capabilities.

06-30-2014, 07:03 AM	#199
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by Kunzite It would be the most expensive K-mount camera. Making the camera is not an issue for Pentax/Ricoh Imaging, it's no more difficult than making an APS-C camera. What's difficult is to (re)start a "full frame" product line. Again, there is a huge difference between using non-Pentax components (which is a given, it makes no sense to try and manufacture everything in-house) and rebadging other maker's product. The Pentax K-3, with its Sony sensor, Fujitsu processor, Seiko (?) shutter etc is a genuine Pentax product. The Sony A7 with a ~~hacked~~ K-mount and sold under the Pentax label would be a rebadged Sony ~~hack~~. Not hacked. The mount would be licensed of course. No need to mis out on licensing fee.

06-30-2014, 07:04 AM	#200
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Clavius So, having Sony build a K-mount A7 with a Pentax label is bad. But the current scenario where Ricoh buys the sensors from Sony, the mainboard from X, the memory from Y, the processor from Z, lenses from Tokina or Tamron, etc and then slaps on a Pentax lable, is OK?!? That does not compute. That's because you are missing the most important step from buying components to having a finished product on which you can slap your brand. Most Pentax lenses by far are designed in house, by the way - they're not bought from "Tokina or Tamron". Let's not use misinformation as "arguments". ---------- Post added 30-06-14 at 05:05 PM ---------- Originally posted by Clavius Not hacked. The mount would be licensed of course. No need to mis out on licensing fee. Putting a K-mount on a camera not designed for a SLR mount is a hack. Licencing won't change that.

06-30-2014, 07:08 AM	#201
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	An A7 with a K-mount, sorry but I think that's a silly idea. It would be a different camera - it would have an empty mirror box just like the K-01. And it would then be mercilessly pounded for being so huge and so inferior to the Sony in terms of ergonomics. Yeah that's exactly what Pentax/Ricoh needs... If you want the A7 just get the A7 and put a K adapter on it.

06-30-2014, 07:10 AM	#202
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by Kunzite That's because you are missing the most important step from buying components to having a finished product on which you can slap your brand. Ah... You think the actual assembly is done by Pentax employees? That's actually one of the most popular things to outsource. Maybe seconded only by software engineering. I can't name a single company still doing that themselves. Originally posted by Kunzite Putting a K-mount on a camera not designed for a SLR mount is a hack. Licencing won't change that. That would make the K-01 a hack too then?

06-30-2014, 07:22 AM	#203
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Of course not, the factories in Philippines and Vietnam are just for show. Pentax is not doing any R&D whatsoever, their products are as generic as it gets and you can't actually find any difference, nothing at all, between a K-3 and an APS-C Sony mirrorless. Happy?

06-30-2014, 07:25 AM	#204
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Well anyway, it was good i could amuse you guys for a while, happy to be of service and all that.

06-30-2014, 07:35 AM	#205
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by normhead Well anyway, it was good i could amuse you guys for a while, happy to be of service and all that. I seriously didn't think it was such a strange idea at all. And Pentax themselves don't either. They didn't have any problem with Samsung using their mount. Or with Samsung rebranding K10D's. I still have the D-Xenogon 100mm macro. Which really is just a DFA 100mm with Schneider Kreuznach glass, but cooler. The other way round, maybe? If Pentax ever introduces an FF camera, they could team with Sony to use the FE mount. That way Pentax could start marketing FE mount lenses. They source the sensor from Sony... Why not the mount too?

06-30-2014, 07:41 AM	#206
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by normhead If you'd followed the thread, I was responding to some one who said that Pentax couldn't afford to develop an FF. So my argument was, "If you're not going to do that do this." So no I'm not, but if Pentax isn't going to develop an FF product line, this is the least they should do. Or at least develop an adapter that lets an A7 camera make full use of the AF lenses capabilities. At some point one has to step in and say: "if they can't do at least this, they won't do it". There are no shortcuts, and even if there were - they're not worth pursuing. For example, Pentax developing an adapter to encourage Pentaxians migrating towards Sony is not a good idea IMHO

06-30-2014, 07:50 AM	#207
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by Kunzite For example, Pentax developing an adapter to encourage Pentaxians migrating towards Sony is not a good idea IMHO But doing nothing and waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter is a good idea then?

06-30-2014, 08:09 AM	#208
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Kunzite At some point one has to step in and say: "if they can't do at least this, they won't do it". There are no shortcuts, and even if there were - they're not worth pursuing. For example, Pentax developing an adapter to encourage Pentaxians migrating towards Sony is not a good idea IMHO If Pentax doesn't want the FF business, it doesn't mean there aren't many who wish they did. A Pentax branded Sony could sell a lot of FF glass. I'm not sure what the downside would be, especially since if there was a Pentax branded mirror less, Pentax could still do a Pentax DSLSR. I'm just not seeing the downside, especially for the A7s, I think we can all agree the biggest weakness with APS-c as done by Pentax is there simply is no adequate low light option. And realistically, there never is going to be a Pentax "s" version, even if they do go FF. A 12 MP low light sensor in an FF body smaller than a K-3, what's not to like? Pentax is never going to do it, Sony already has.

06-30-2014, 09:29 AM	#209
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Clavius But doing nothing and waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter is a good idea then? They're not doing nothing; in fact I suspect they're quite busy (e.g. expanding the production capacity). Waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter, well... nobody at Ricoh or Sony is considering this option. Originally posted by normhead If Pentax doesn't want the FF business, it doesn't mean there aren't many who wish they did. A Pentax branded Sony could sell a lot of FF glass. I'm not sure what the downside would be, especially since if there was a Pentax branded mirror less, Pentax could still do a Pentax DSLSR. I'm just not seeing the downside, especially for the A7s, I think we can all agree the biggest weakness with APS-c as done by Pentax is there simply is no adequate low light option. And realistically, there never is going to be a Pentax "s" version, even if they do go FF. A 12 MP low light sensor in an FF body smaller than a K-3, what's not to like? Pentax is never going to do it, Sony already has. Exactly what problem are you ("we") trying to solve with this? If the existence of a K-mount camera would sell a lot of FF glass, then why not making the camera themselves? They certainly are capable of doing that. There is nothing about Sony that would make people buy more Pentax lenses. I doubt a more expensive and larger (in an awkward way) Sony is more compelling than the original. I doubt it would attract new customers. I doubt people asking for this would actually buy it.

06-30-2014, 09:49 AM	#210
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Kunzite They're not doing nothing; in fact I suspect they're quite busy (e.g. expanding the production capacity). Waiting for Sony to reverse engineer and market an AF K to FE mount adapter, well... nobody at Ricoh or Sony is considering this option. Exactly what problem are you ("we") trying to solve with this? If the existence of a K-mount camera would sell a lot of FF glass, then why not making the camera themselves? They certainly are capable of doing that. There is nothing about Sony that would make people buy more Pentax lenses. I doubt a more expensive and larger (in an awkward way) Sony is more compelling than the original. I doubt it would attract new customers. I doubt people asking for this would actually buy it. I also don't think it gains anything or is even worth the effort to involve Sony so heavily in the body aside from the sensor. Pentax can make the FF body in just about any form they want, the main problem has always been getting new AF-K lenses spun up with existing design teams and factory lines. It's a resource/capacity/capital problem, mainly centered around the lenses. The 645z proves they can make a fantastic, modern, state-of-art large-format camera body. Ming Thein has said his 645z CMOS images downsampled to D4-sized 'blows his D4 out of the water'. Coupled with the much faster AF and less image-display lag than the 645D, etc, that 645z is an example of what Pentax can do utilizing a component-integration strategy. .