Originally posted by kadajawi I meant I guess great camera engineers don't grow on trees, they are quite rare. Hiring some engineers without the experience and without others to teach them to develop a new camera would be bad, IMHO. I think they should grow their team, but in an organic way, slowly. The current release cycle is... slow, to say the least. For the number of different lines they have it's fine, but if they are adding another one...?
If they are adding another one they would just have to plan accordingly (R&D capacity, production capacity, sales&marketing...). Maybe the investments in added capacity is (partly) because of this.
Originally posted by kadajawi Canon users can't use 40 year old lenses, IIRC. They did a clean cut a while back. Also there are a ton of Canon and Nikon photographers, so even if few customers buy lenses, that's still a lot of lenses sold. Pentax has a much smaller market share, especially the FF part, if they end up doing it.
Canon did it in very different circumstances, and with strong technical reasons (as opposed to a "let's just screw our customers" kind of "reason").
This kind of thinking is very wrong, because it's making the false assumptions that people who would not buy new K-mount lenses would buy new mount lenses.
Originally posted by kadajawi Pentax needs to consider the needs of pro photographers, and that is, often enough, stills AND video.
Why?
I'm all for keeping up with video (even though I have no need for it); but going after the pro market is not easy. It's not enough to have highly competitive products, you'll also need pro-level support, and sponsoring pros with equipment. Even pro photography is very difficult, but pro videographers as well?
Originally posted by kadajawi @Kunzite: I thought I replied already about the laughing stock. Hasselblad is a "laughing stock" because they have DRESSED UP a Sony camera. That's like encrusting a VW Golf in diamonds and then charging more for it than you would for a Mercedes S class. It's not making the actually quite competent car any better. What you fail to see though is that Hasselblad is probably earning pretty well with these cameras. You may laugh at them, but they'll be laughing all the way to the bank. Certain people don't care about the actual product all that much, they want exclusivity, expensive (sounding) materials etc. Vertu was selling old Nokia phones for $10000, at a time where most people were using iPhones etc. And they did really well. Now at least they also make smartphones that are decent, but a HTC One will be just as good... for a fraction of the cost. But it's not a Vertu, the back is not made from alligator skin, ...
If Pentax were to rebadge a Sony camera for example, because it's a low volume market and doing something unique would not be economically viable, the reaction may not be as harsh (unless Pentax adds stupid gimmicks like Hasselblad does). I mean Mercedes is rebadging Renault for example. Nissan is rebadging Dacia. And on and on and on. So what?
Arri is another example like Leica, maybe even more important. Leica is, these days, more of a boutique manufacturer, doing collectors items. Arri though with it's 1100 employees dominates the movie equipment market.
Sony making cameras for Hasselblad was used as an example of what Pentax could do. A laughing-stock, as an example.
It doesn't matter if some people would pay billions on a turd, if it's covered in wood and has a Hasselblad badge (this time they used Sony cameras, next year we might see a Turdar
). This is not what Pentax is. This is not what Hasselblad was, but being controlled by equity firms probably didn't help.
Originally posted by kadajawi I don't think it would be wise for Pentax to compete in a market (FF) where there are 2 extremely well established brands, with brand loyalty and where people have bought into the system (thus making switching even harder). There are not so many new users, and usually they come from those established brands anyway. There is of course the advantage in Pentax offering FF in that people from the start see an upgrade path all the way, where they can keep at least some of their gear should they want to switch from APS-C to FF. i.e. using a FF Pentax to sell APS-C Pentaxes. But at this point... not sure it is worth it.
Pentax is already competing in a market (DSLR) where there are 2 extremely well established brands. Pentax is growing (better said, recovering after Hoya) on that market. You're saying it wouldn't be wise but they're already doing this... the question is only about going one step upwards.
Originally posted by kadajawi The mirrorless market is much more diverse. Canon is completely unimportant, Nikon is doing something a bit odd that doesn't seem to sell well. Panasonic and Olympus have one well established system, but they aren't absolutely dominating. Sony is there too, but they too aren't dominating. Samsung is a side note, and then there is Fuji and Leica battling it out for pure stills cameras that are a joy to use, cameras where user experience is all (IMHO). It is a very diverse market with many brands competing, but none of them have really caught on. I'd argue it'd be easier for Pentax to do a mirrorless APS-C (or perhaps mFT?) camera that has something new to offer. It could be like the K1000. A Nikon Df done right. Comes with a K mount adapter that gives full K mount functionality. Perhaps it's even easier to do a FF version (no bigger prism needed, no new bigger mirror mechanism needed). And different sensor versions, with essentially identical cameras but different sensors for different purposes (like the A7 series... I think Sony is on to something).
The mirrorless market is both much smaller, and controlled by several extremely well established brands. More competition in a smaller market, lower price points, customers too price sensitive...
The arguments against doing a FF DSLR are working better against a FF MILC. Then, there good reasons not to start a system with a niche FF line (but with a higher volume APS-C).
Originally posted by kadajawi Oh, and how did that strategy of not trying to offer pro cameras in the 35mm area work? Oh right, Canon and Nikon absolutely dominate the market, and Pentax was in the meantime sold a few times and is on life support.
Hold your horses; this is misinformation.
- Pentax was not "sold a few times"; we're talking about
one hostile takeover (with "insider" i.e. major shareholder support/orchestration) and then they were sold
once (because the company doing the hostile takeover never wanted Pentax Imaging, but only the medical division). Both are linked so we can consider it a single event.
- Pentax is not on life support. Well, the company is Ricoh Imaging now - a merger of what was left from Pentax Imaging and Ricoh's own camera division. It's growing and profitable, and Ricoh is investing in them.
- a pro 35mm camera would solve nothing by itself, in fact it can bury a viable company. And Nikon launched their "full frame" late in the game, after competing with Canon with APS-C models (including pro cameras).
Originally posted by kadajawi A FF Pentax A7 would have minimal development costs (even production would be outsourced), so that it does not distract Pentax from doing APS-C and perhaps other exciting things. I simply don't think a FF Pentax, alongside new lenses, developed from scratch (or at least from the K-3) would at this point be profitable. If they get down those costs and the impact on Pentax' R&D department then why not? I do see advantages to them offering FF. It's just not worth it in the end.
Why making any camera at all then? They could fire everyone but board and sales, and buy their cameras from Sony. You don't want Pentax products so you don't care; and you're arguing with Pentaxians who care about Pentax products.
Originally posted by kadajawi I'd put my money on mirrorless. It's a growth market.
Of course you do.
But hyping mirrorless on a SLR brand forum is a bit strange.